Unknown 9mm P08 box-probably pre WWII


#1

I recently picked up this box. Can anyone tell me what the second line on the label said in both German and English?

What is the probable date of this label?

Is there anything interesting about this label or cartridge?

Thanks,

Lew


#2

Maybe Verschiedenen Lieferungen would do the job. That might identify repacked ammo from various sources, hence the lack of other information on the label. If I’m wrong I’m sure we’ll know soon enough. Jack


#3

I agree with Jack on the identification of the words. In the “Old German Type” the letter “V” looks like that - like a fancy “B” or a fancy “23”. Mixed lots. Nothing special with the rounds, but a really good label, with that style print, for 9 mm Para. Funny they are so scarce when 7.9 x 57 labels saying the same thing are relatively common.


#4

Here are two lists “old” german letter types.

as said by Jack, the line should read:

Verschiedene Lieferungen
which means so much as: different lots

cheers
René


#5

I was fixing an Photobucket image in one of my old posts and realized I had some questions on this thread.

The first shows my ignorance of German. The letters that Rene posted show the first letter in the second line of the label is a “B” yet Jack & John and Rene all translated the first word of the second line as Verschiedene. Why isn’t it Berschieden based on the list of old German letters above?

The second is more embracing! Rereading the thread, I noticed the box has a blue band down the front indicating steel case ammunition (at least that is what I thought it meant). I had assumed the old German script meant it was from the mid-1930s or so, but that is obviously not the case.

I am travelling and don’t have access to my collection. Does anyone know a rough date when Old German went out of use for box labels???

Finally, does anyone else have a similar box, and if so, what are the dates on the cartridges???

Cheers,
Lew


#6

Lew, in January 1941 there was a Letter from the NSDAP issueing the order not to use the “Gothic” script anymore as it was basing on old Jewish-German script named “Schwabacher Judenlettern”.
Bormann himself ordered that in all government matters including street signs etc. only “normal” lettering (no font specified there) was to be used in future.

Despite the date it is of course possible that factories and other entities were late with implementing this order or simply used up existing stocks of labels and other items which were already produced and scrapping was out of question as the war was on full throttle already.

Also it might be possible that the military itself ordered similar things within it’s own command but there I have no reference.
Maybe somebody else has seen such written orders?


#7

Lew, if you look closer to the list, you see the difference from B to V…
See here: V
V%20alt

and here B:
B%20alt

Peter


#8

Great data point! Many thanks EOD!

Interesting that Geco in lot 3 of 1941 was using a mix of letter styles on the label. They were still using the old script for Case, Bullet and Primer on 1944 labels. I just checked an rfo box from 1944, and not only were the words Case, Bullet and Primer in old script, but the entire top line was old script. All other data was in the new script.

I wonder why they were using 50 round boxes with standard Army labels???

Lew

dnh%2041%203%20-St%20case%2050rd%20box


#9

Peter,

I see my confusion.

Here is the letter on the box
image
Here is B
image
Here is V
image

The character has a very distinct notch in the line on the right side of the letter, where the V has no notch and the B has a much larger notch that almost reachs the vertical line on the left side of the letter.

Since it is obviously a “V” I decided to check around and found another set of Old German script which shows the V as:
image
This version of “V” has the notch in the right side vertical line and is very close to the character on the box.

The answer is obvious, there are different syles of old German Just like old English and other English scripts and my eye and brain isn’t agile enough to catch the differences.

Thanks to everyone for putting up with me!

Cheers,
Lew


#10

We should keep in mind that originally “Gothic” (called Fraktur in German) was considered symbolizing German heritage. This view is much older than Nazi rule. But after 1933 there were journals, for example, that switched from Roman (called Antiqua) to Fraktur to show how German they were.
All copies of Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” I have seen were printed in Fraktur.
Then the Nazis realized the significant resources required by this type of font and conveniently fabricated the story of Jewish involvement in the Fraktur fonts as a pretext to order only Antiqua being used in the future.
Many printers, of course, had existing Fraktur font hardware in their typesetting infrastructure and it would have been a difficult and expensive process to exchange the existing hardware with new Antiqua letters. This is the reason why we see Fraktur fonts continuously being used.