Unknown 9mm short stop?


#1

In my collection “projectile-study” I have an unknown projectile. It’s made of black plastic/nylon. The bottom looks like a hardened glue, kind of Bisonkit, and visible is at least one lead ball. There is another ball visible but covered.
The tip of the bullet is pre-cut in six segments.
Lenght overall: 19,4 mm
Weight:42,3 grain
Diameter 9,01 mm
Non magnetic

It’s just a projectile, I have no clue about manufacturer or case.

Who…?


#2

Hi Jaco

This can help you in something

Regards

Rufus


#3

Hi Rufus,
Thanks for reply. Point is…the bullets inside are lead, no steel, the bullet is 100% nonmagnetic. But, it could be this is the good direction, the use as described at Gun Hub is still possible with lead balls also. Will do less damage inside a barrel I think.

Grtz
Jaco


#4

Or plastic sabot releases the ball until you hit the target? Then the barrel is intact. It is not known what is the strength of the slit at the top. Of course, the balls can fly out when the shot. The use of lead in a significant way spare barrel :-)
First time I have contact with the projectile. Usually, balls are loose in the case and is a cap. That is why I suggest that, of course I can be wrong :-)

Rufus


#5

I’m sorry, but the bullet in the picture has nothing to do with the 9 mm Kammerpatroner for the Swedish Kulsprutepistol 45, which are the cartridges described on the referenced web forum. That is a shiny, black-plastic bullet of relatively normal shape, and with none of the grooves or odd base shown in the picture on this thread. There is no lead in the bullet at all. Embedded in the nose is a steel ball, which is all that leaves the barrel of the special, tapered-bore barrel for the K’pist 45. The black plastic portion is pulverized and leaves the barrel as “plastic dust.” There is a red plastic equivalent without the steel ball in the tip. It is completely pulverized when fired in the correct special barrel, the same as for the gallery load, but with an additional muzzle constrictor.

Either of these loads (yes, the blank too) can cause serious injury to anything in front of the muzzle if fired in a normal barrel.

For collectors’ interest, I have a color reversal in each load in my own collection - that is, a black bullet without the steel ball (possibly a production glitch, but the next one makes me believe it is not), and a red bullet with the steel ball (which I do not think could possibly be a production error).
I suspect from my original source for these that they were something experimental, but I have no documentation for either of them, except to know that they are legitimate.

These rounds, by the way, are found usually with standard Swedish military headstamps, but are known with commercial Swedish headstamps and non-Swedish headstamps as well. I have a number of them like that in my own collection, and have seen others I don’t have in other collections.

I have no idea what the bullet pictured is, but from its length and shape, I have serious doubts as to whether it could be used loaded in a 9 mm Para caliber pistol or machine pistol with any success.

In passing, let me say that I have handled hundreds of rounds of the gallery load (and thousands of the blanks) and in the gallery load, I have never encountered a missing or loose steel ball from the plastic projectile.

John Moss


#6

John I fully agree with you.
The cartrigde Rufus means is 9mm K Ptr m/39 :

That’s a complete other cartridge. I know this only with a steel ball, I have a few (black and red) in my collection, but all the black have a steel ball.

For the projectile of my question, it fits perfectly in a 9mm case.
I have more cartridges with rubber bullets, here one comparing with my unknown one. It’s a long bullet also, leaving not much space for powder but this is one from a live round.

Grtz
Jaco


#7

JACO - The last pictures you posted are much better for comparing shapes. Yes, after seeing the improved pictures, I think they would feed in a 9 mm Pistol, with a few exceptions that are cranky to bullet shapes. Probably also in most any machine pistol in that caliber.

I still have a concern with the length of the bullet. A pretty normal 9 mm Para bullet is about 16.5 mm in length. I mention “about” because they will vary quite a bit. A very long Hornady bullet I have is 17.91 mm in length. A bullet of 19.4 mm in length would, if seated to a depth allowing a fairly normal over-all cartridge length, would take up a pretty good portion of the powder chamber. I DO recognize that the very light bullet would not take much powder to attain velocities for very short-range shooting. I just wonder about accuracy as well.

Well, I readily concede, thanks to the excellent second set of photos, that it is possible both of the bullets shown were intended for the 9 mm para caliber. A good photo is worth 1,000 words!

Thanks for posting them.

John Moss


#8

Thank you John.
The other rubber bullet, from the live roud, is also long, it had has flattened the powder so strong, it did not even fell out of the caes when unloading…

Yess, a description will sometimes take a lot of words…and one picture says sometimes all in a second.
All the pictures I’ve post here on the forum are taken bij my cellphone, with sometimes the use of a simple macrolens ;-)

Grtz
Jaco


#9

Jaco,
Two nice items. I have never seen either. What was the headstamp on the case that the one came out of? With these kind of bullets, many use whatever case is available, but perhaps the headstamp gives a hint.

Both German and French companies, among others have played with soft plastic and rubber bullets. Below are some examples, but none look like yours. Most of these, at least the French, have never seen a collection as far as I know.

I wonder about using a Short Stop bullet with a lead ball inside. Seems to me that on contact, or shortly after, the rubber bullet and lead ball would separate and the lead would penetrate.

Nice items, thanks for posting.

Cheers,
Lew

PS: the last is a paint marking round, I think, which showed up in South Africa in a commercial S&B case. Another one off that we will never know anything about.


#10

Hi Lew,

Thanks for repley.
I did call ‘my’ projectile a short stop because I do not have any idea for another type. Buck is not right too I think. There are at least 2 lead balls inside it, I think about 4 of 5 together.

For the other one, witch I gave for example, those (I have 2 identical) have WIN 9mm LUGER headstamps:

I seperated one because of a cutaway and it has this powder:

Grtz
Jaco