Unknown British gunmakers


#1

Do you know the following manufacturers who were in England at the beginning of the 2th century :

Keepers

Grampian

thanks
JP


#2

JP.

Yes, also did a cartridge called the Sure Shot! If you look at M446L it will confirm that.

Mike.


#3

Hello Mike

“Yes, also did a cartridge called the Sure Shot! If you look at M446L it will confirm that.”

Are you answering the question about Keepers or Grampian ?
And what is the city ?
Thanks
JP


#4

Grampion was made by D Crockart & Co , Stirling.


#5

Here again I am confused !

Therefore Grampian was not a gun maker ?
I thought Mike said it was a gunmaker ??

JP


#6

LOL,

Grampian is a cartridge (trade name) used by… ready for this :-

Playfair (the one you are looking for JP) also they sold the Sure Shot and the Keeper (all of them have the three little ducks on, think they had a thing for ducks!!) Ohh they also did a brass ejector (no ducks).

Also it was also sold by D. Crockart & Son.

So two companies sold a cartridge with the same trade name on.

Mike.


#7

Mike, here also I very confused.

My question is : When you have a ctge with the hstp N° Grampian 12 Smokeless Grampian is it (or is not) the name of a gunmaker ??

Thanks
JP


#8

JP,

No, it is the trade name of the cartridge just as Keeper is.

Playfair is the gunmakers name for that particular cartridge.

Regards,
Mike.


#9

How do you know that ???
JP


#10

JP.

GRAMPIAN is NOT the name of a gunmaker,
It is the brand name of that particular shotshell, named after the Grampian mountains in Scotland.
Jim


#11

Thank you Jim

I suppose it is the same about “Keepers”, it is also a trade name, isn’t it ?

JP


#12

J.P.

Yes, the KEEPERS cartridge was a brand name probably aimed at GAME-KEEPERS.

Jim


#13

Grampian could be…but he also asked about Crockart and Crockard also makes a shell called Grampian so I mentioned it…not meaning to confuse the issue…sorry.
I thought maybe the same…or perhaps also a maker called grampian but I could find no listing for them.


#14

How do I know what ???

That the trade name is Keeper.
OR
They were made for the company called Playfair…

Mike.


#15

For Jim :

The hstps I was asking the question about were

N° Keepers 12 Smokeless
and
N° Grampian 12 Smokeless

And now the question I ask you is : which gunmaker did sold them ?

Thanks
JP


#16

For Mike:
my question was :

How do you know Keeper and Grampian were made by Playfair ?

JP


#17

Hi JP.
As I said at the beginning of this thread, check M.446L for verification (which is where you are getting all these questions from). With M.446 being the customer and “L” being the product enquiry. The Keeper is M.446E & F and the Grampian M. 446G & H.

Mike.


#18

Mike,

  1. I think you have to be more carefull when you use the sfm drawings

The number is not always for the same customer and the suffix the product enquiry.

You can have the same number for different customers and only the suffix differentiate them.

This happens specially for export products because they were ordered (even at the same time) by the SFM representative abroad.

  1. If we deal with number 446 for example which is not a complicated case.

446 : order 5296 from 1909 Keepers hstp
446B : order 5296 from 1909 : Smokeless on the tube
446C : order 5218 from 1910 : Keepers hstp (French case around primer)
446D : order 5218 from 1910 : smokeless on the tube
446E : order 5035 from 1911 Keepers hstp (French made case around primer)
446F : order 7492 from 1912 : Keepers and ducks on the tube
446G : order 1492 from 1914 : Grampian with ducks on the tube
446H : order 1492 from 1914 : Grampian hstp
446K : order 1403 from 1921 : Sure Shot with ducks on the tube
446l : order 1403 from 1921 : Playfair hstp

  1. From that what I can say (100% sure) :

In 1909 Keepers hstp with Smokeless on the tube
In 1910 : Keepers hstp (French case around primer) with Smokeless on the tube
In 1911 Keepers hstp (French made case around primer) with Smokeless on the tube
In 1912 Keepers hstp (French made case around primer) with Keepers + ducks on the tube
In 1914 : Grampian hstp with Grampian + ducks on the tube
In 1921 : Playfair hstp with Sure Shot + ducks on the tube

  1. With only this info I cannot make a shortcut saying the orders from 1909 to 1914 were for Playfair. (because for many other numbers this shortcut is false)

Perhaps Playfair was not even existing before 1914 !

  1. I had first to check if Keepers or Grampian were gunsmiths, therefore I asked the question.
    They are not.

  2. I have now to check if Playfair was existing in 1904 and ,if not, what was the name of his predecessor.

  3. And to confirm I must ask if somebody has samples of these ctges in his collection.

  4. I cannot say Keepers and Grampian were made for Playfair just because they are ducks on the tube and the drawings has the same number.
    (I have about 50 pictures of tube for England with ducks and as I told you many times we have same drawing number (except a different suffix) for different customers).

Remember this case is what I call an easy example.

It is the reason why in the other topics about more complicated cases, I asked you if you have samples.

JP


#19

JP,

Yes we have spoken of this before but you cannot look at facts all the time and believe they are not correct some times.

With this one in mind I think you will have to accept that the documents you and I have are correct. When you look at the evidence of them having the same customer number, having the same design on the case wall printing I take this as more than a coincidence. Also as the actual cases have no Gunmaker/Ironmongers name (in print or stamping) it is going to be very hard to prove different. And as you say you cannot take anything anybody else writes or tells you as correct then you are at a dead end.
As to the ducks I would be very interested to see the 50 pictures that have of the same ducks on the tube, as Playfair’s were a very distinctive style and I only know of three instances of it (all on Playfair cartridges). If you just mean ducks in general then that is a false avenue of reasoning and totally invalid in this instance.

I also do not know of a box by them that might help with your dilemma.

Mike.


#20

Mike

  1. I just tell you I am very carefull before making conclusions, specialy with the SFM marks drawings.

In the present case I even don’t know if Playfair was existing in 1909 !!
(Perhaps you know that but not me)

When we will know that, it will be one step further to say it can be for Playfair in these years.

And if we can check who patented the trade mark Grampian, it will be another step (and perhaps the final one)
(Perhaps you know that also, but not me).

  1. Therefore I don’t say Keepers and Grampian were not made for Playfair.

If you think it is an evidence for you, it is Ok.

But not for me. I just say: Till now I don’t know.

  1. And I tell you again, as a general rule, be carefull: the number is not for only a customer,

It can be the same for many customers (specialy for export and even for France)
This is based not only on shotshells but also on civil and military ctges study.

I have been actually working again for more than one month on SFM trade marks because I precisely discovered errors I did in the past due to a too fast way of cataloguing them.
Therefore it is a friendly warning I give you. Only that.

JP