Unknown caseless (?)


#1

Do anyone know what this is?

Except for size, they seem to be identical. Steel (magnetic) body and copper driving bands.
Any help appreciated.

morten


#2

Hi Morten,

These are .45 and 9 mm caseless rounds developed by Paul Van Hee in the 1970’s. Wish I can add more, but I don’t have any documentation about them, only what was reported by other collectors.

Regards,

Fede


#3

This thread may help a bit:


#4

I understand it was the same Paul Van Hee who was found guilty. He apparently died not long thereafter. His name is associated with a lot of unusual rounds. I know he sold quite a few of these to collectors. There are differences of opinion whether these are valid experimentals or “made for collector” experimentals. When I talked to a lot of people back in 2009, I got a wide range of opinions.

Cheers,
Lew


#5

Lew, yes, it is the same person, but he was only fined with $5,000 and placed on 2 years of probation. His full name is Paul Norton Van Hee, was born on December 16, 1927 and died on February 1, 1995.

Besides Cadillac Gage, another company founded by him was Norton Arms Corp., makers of the Budischowsky TP-70 pistol.

By the way, do you have a list of all the cartridges attributed to him?

Regards,

Fede


#6

Thanks for the information!
morten


#7

Fede,

No I do not have a list of his cartridges. I don’t even have a list of his 9x19mm. The Woodin Laboratory has an extensive set of his 9x19mms and probably other calibers, but they are integrated into the collection by caliber and someone would have their work cut out for them identify the Van Hee items.

Cheers,
Lew


#8

Here are two more of his.
The .45 plastic or turned Nylon also exists in white & none are headstamped (Boxer primer pockets)
The autographed .45 is headstamped “W-W 45AUTO” & the 9 is “MEN-77 9x19SP” three stake primer crimp w/ red annulus. I think the turned aluminum nose insert goes completely through the center. I think RTB had photos or descriptions in one of his sales & these are thought to be the start of the “Action” type (may be wrong on the actual type name) bullets.


#9

Paul was pretty cool when I knew him & always the gentleman. He would show up at the Pennsylvania Gun Collectors & meet up with John Scott, after trips to Europe & back on the Concorde. Fancy luggage with a designers name on it and almost always had a pretty & much younger lady along.

Over time I got some rare cartridges from him & all were right & correct. Of the eight that I know about .45 HE delay rounds mentioned in Vol 3 of Hackley, he showed up at a Williamsport PA show with three one year.

As I remember his ‘faults’ were with his deals not his merchandise.

A “story” I recall is that he had borrowed over a million $ from the gentleman who owned NWM Hank Visher (spelling?) and wasn’t repaying it. Also that he had a card he could show entitling him to be treated with a Generals rank & privilege when traveling. As I said these are rumors / stories about Paul, I have no personal knowledge to the truth of them, just passing them along for color.


#10

Was there any weapons made for these cartridges?


#11

Henk Visser.
Henk is pronounced more or less like Hank, the family name like Fisser (the ss as in scissors).
He was a very prominent figure in Dutch armament industry, but I doubt he owned NWM.


#12

Thanks, for the corrections, maybe he was CEO? I do know he collected Ivory stocked firearms.


#13

Visser and Van Hee, together with CETME, were also involved in the development of a “assault pistol” for the Spanish Government. This model was intended for the 6.35x21SR unheadstamped round that many have in their collections, many as NPE cases or assembled from components, but others with original turned bullets handmade at CETME. Van hee also developed a series of small caliber cartridges (4, 4.5 & 5 mm), presumably for this pistol. I think that the latter only exist as mock-up dummies.


#14

Fede, where can I find info on this project?
Thanks


#15

I never met Henk Visser, but know people who knew him well and through them acquired some of the 9mm Para from his collection/accumulation. Lots of very interesting stories. He was not the owner of NWM but was the Director. A very interesting interview with him can be found at
http://www.smallarmsoftheworld.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1724

Cheers,
Lew

Regarding Paul Van Hee being a General, I also saw his little card. He was never a General and as far as I know was never in the military. He was apparently hired at one time as an advisor to the US Army as a civilian. There is a special class of temporary civilian hires, outside Civil Service for people to serve on special functions like Congressionally appointed groups or as special advisors. In these positions the individual is authorized some privileges of General and given a card authorizing this, for example staying in Distinguished Visitor quarters when visiting a base, perhaps use of a staff car,access to flights on government aircraft for travel, access to the officers club, some reserve parking slots for VIPs and this sort of thing. The privileges only apply when the person is actually serving in the position and traveling on government orders. Paul could be a very charming guy and was a great salesman.

Cheers,
Lew


#16

Hi Lew
Interesting that the “General” card was for real and it’s allowed usage.
Thanks


#17

I just found the second part of the article on Henk Visser. It appears he did own NWM because in the article at:
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=140
This is also where he mentions Paul Van Hee.

He says

“I had contacted Gene Stoner in America, and we became good friends. This was in 1962 I believe. I told him everything that happened in Europe. There was a sales director named Paul Van Hee from Cadillac Gage; the company that had paid for the development of the Stoner Rifle in Newport Beach, California. Nothing could be done without Cadillac Gage over in Detroit being involved. I went there, and in the end I managed to make the right contacts. Around that time, I sold NWM in Holland to a German group, the Quandt Group, that was Mauser, BMW, Mercedes, Nico Pyrotechnik, etc.; the whole thing. I became the director for their military business.”

Perhaps he means that, as director he organized the sale, but he sure makes it sound like he owned it. In my conversation with someone who knew him well, I was left with the impression that Visser owned NWM. I suspect NWM was a public company owned by its stockholders. If Visser sold it he would have done it on behalf of his stockholders.

Cheers,
Lew


#18

My Goodness ! Here I feel again as an actual Dinosaur…!

I knew quite well Paul Van Hee, and I will only say that he was a greet fellow and an extremely nice man… He was always trying to put some news ideas on practice… The BATF was not very nice with him…As far as his problerm for the Portuguese affair, one must remember that as South Africa, Portugal was under UN embargo at the time, which can explain lots of things.

II will not go in the question about “General or not General”… In my life, I met some Generals who really did not deserve to be (!), and in my opinion, Paul was a more interesting guy than those people…
So, as I said before, and to close the point); I will say again he was a nice guy and a good friend.

RIP, Paul, some people do always think to you.


#19

A funny story. I was in visiting with L. James Sullivan today & as he also worked with Stoner & at Cadillac Gage in Detroit. I asked him if he knew Henk Visser or Paul Van Hee. He said he knew both but Paul not very well. I mentioned that I had heard that an APC was the cause of Paul’s problem with the government & he said Cadillac Gage did have a APC & it had special tires, apparently early run-flats but he knew knew nothing of Paul’s trouble. Anyhow he went on to relate that the turret on the APC was friction driven and once when out on the street, somehow the rubber friction pieces got wet, so now here’s this APC fitted with a Stoner gun driving down the street’s of Detroit with the turret freely swinging.


#20

A few other 9mm items I’ve seen. I would say the black case types with copper driving bands would be the “final” result and the others prototypes. Trying to find photos of other calibers…

Dwight