Unknown Chinese/Russian 7.62 x 51


#1

Greetings all, the headstamp on this round is 61 88 it is copper washed steel cased with brass primer and it has a silver tip, ( light ball? ) my list shows factory 61 as for China and Russia but none make the 7.62 x 51 round ,there is no factory 88 ,so my list is not up to date , which factory 61 makes this round Thanks Randy


#2

Peoples’ Republic of China, 1988.


#3

Never seen one of those with a silver tip. The silver tip marking was dropped from Chinese and Soviet/WarsawPact 7.62x54r light ball long before 1988 also…

The Chinese factory “61” made 7.62x51mm for clandestine aid and commercial sales… There was even some fake British headstamped 7.62x51mm made in China…

AKMS


#4

Today (or very recent) TsNIITOChMASh in Klimovsk (Russia) is also making 7.62x51 with “61” code.

There are also 9x19 and 9x21 with code “61” from the same plant.


#5

Randy,

those who are a bit familiar with Soviet and Chinese h/s from that time possibly can tell the origin when there was a picture of the h/s posted please … And maybe also a picture of the entire ctg., thank you!


#6

The “61” code from 1988 is definitely Chinese. The Russian use of “61” came much later. Dave Sutton has examples of the Russian “61” in 7.62x51. I’ll ask him to post pics of the Chinese and Russian versions.


#7

Here are the pictures of the Chinese cartridge - copper washed steel case and the Russian cartridge each with the 61 headstamp

I’ve have multiple exapmles of the Chinese cartridge (all CWS) but have only seen the Russian with the 04 date. I think the cartridge may be a trade dummy - it has hole drilled into the case. I’m not sure that there is any significance to the color tip. I have several other Russian trade dummies (brass) with assorted blue tips. If anyone can help clarify this, I’d be very grateful.

Dave S (not John S :-) )


#8

I cannot identify the meaning of the white tip on your round, but regarding trade dummies, I can tell you that the Russians make up dummies even to portray exotic loadings, applying the correct tip colors and other identifications to them, for trade shows, especially the military trade shows. I have 9mm Makarov-caliber special loadings of all sorts of types, including the blue-tipped “Proof Loads” and tracer with green primer and case mouth seal. They are all inert, and in the case of the tracer, it probably an ordinary ball bullet rather than just an inert tracer bullet, but they represent the non-ball loadings. Actually, some of my best Russian Mak rounds are inert trade-show dummy rounds, loadings you never see in live ones.

For military use, they have even made up exotic-loading dummy rounds on fluted cases, for what purpose I cannot comprehend. They are known in most calibers. I have seen the red and black tip Tokarev fluted dummies, although I don’t have one, and I have had in the past dummies of the red-black tip and green tip fluted dummy in 7.62 x 54R.

The DDR went so far as to color the tips of some of the black plastic dummies green to represent a tracer. What gives there? Seems like a very, very silly practice.

The trade show dummies with colored tips are completely understood to have a real purpose in displaying an entire line of ammunition to potential buyers, but I will never understand military training dummies (taken from training kits, so there is no question of legitimacy) painted to represent rounds whose function will never be realized from a dummy cartridge. What an exercise in futility.


#9

I suppose some of the DDR dummies with colour tips could have been used to practise filling belts, either by hand or with a linking machine, eg. 4 “ball” dummies to one “tracer” dummy. Just a thought.


#10

[quote=“JohnMoss”]I cannot identify the meaning of the white tip on your round, but regarding trade dummies, I can tell you that the Russians make up dummies even to portray exotic loadings, applying the correct tip colors and other identifications to them, for trade shows, especially the military trade shows. I have 9mm Makarov-caliber special loadings of all sorts of types, including the blue-tipped “Proof Loads” and tracer with green primer and case mouth seal. They are all inert, and in the case of the tracer, it probably an ordinary ball bullet rather than just an inert tracer bullet, but they represent the non-ball loadings. Actually, some of my best Russian Mak rounds are inert trade-show dummy rounds, loadings you never see in live ones.

For military use, they have even made up exotic-loading dummy rounds on fluted cases, for what purpose I cannot comprehend. They are known in most calibers. I have seen the red and black tip Tokarev fluted dummies, although I don’t have one, and I have had in the past dummies of the red-black tip and green tip fluted dummy in 7.62 x 54R.

The DDR went so far as to color the tips of some of the black plastic dummies green to represent a tracer. What gives there? Seems like a very, very silly practice.

The trade show dummies with colored tips are completely understood to have a real purpose in displaying an entire line of ammunition to potential buyers, but I will never understand military training dummies (taken from training kits, so there is no question of legitimacy) painted to represent rounds whose function will never be realized from a dummy cartridge. What an exercise in futility.[/quote]

John, Dave’s Russian round has a light blue tip as those which are claimed to be recent proof loads. These show up on all sort of arms exhibitions the Russians are taking part in but for some reason the cartridges seem not to exist as loaded samples in Russia itself (according to Russian ammo researchers). To further complicate the story a 9x39 AP cartridge has been found recently with a civilain head stamp as it is being delivered to the Russian MIA but it was nowhere marked as a proof round and was assumed to be a regular one for duty purposes.

Those painted drill rounds are sets for instructional purposes and come through the regular supply chain to the Russian armed forces.


#11

Thanks for all the replies Folks, this round has a has a 5mm silver tip,it sure looks factory , looking closely you can see there is a clear neck and primer seal , sorry I am unable to post a photo at this time I am hoping to catch up with this technology, I have a few photos to do . Randy