Unknown ctge


#1

Sorry to ennoy you, but I have not anymore a good memory and I didn’t play with this kind of ctges for at least 10 years.

What is the unknown ctge?
It looks like a Mosin but it is not
The shoulder is lower

on the left a 7.62 Mosin ( И 904 K II) (7.75 x 53.3)
in the middle the unknown ctge (DM 1917) (7.70 x 53.2)
on the right a common WWII 7.62 Mosin (7.85 x 53.4)

Thanks
JP


#2

From left to right these should be:

7.62x54R models of

  • M1891
  • M1908
  • M1908/30

#3

[quote=“EOD”]From left to right these should be:

7.62x54R models of

  • M1891
  • M1908
  • M1908/30[/quote]

It means the position of the shoulder changed ???
JP


#4

Keep in mind that the DM 1917 was “reverse-engineered” during the war.


#5

so it is reverse engineering or 3 different models ???
jp


#6

I would say that it is a German “interpretation” of a Russian model.


#7

It could be but it is strange because it is a bad copy.
When the German copied the 8 Lebel ctge it was a good copy

Both explanations (bad copy or change in the position of the shoulder) don’t satisfy me.

If somebody has another explanation he is welcome.

Thanks anyway.

JP


#8

In fact the Russian cartridges had different necks which varied a bit on the first two models. Only when the M1930 model was adopted the necks became finally uniform in appearance.


#9

Could you explain please Alex

Do you mean the neck varied among ctges of the first model and also among ctges of the secnd model?
And this depending of the manufacturer for example.

Or do you mean the neck varied from the first to the second model?

Thanks
JP


#10

Jean-Pierre I mean the differences between the modifications. Try to look up some from before 1908 (round nose) some from WW1 and then some from after 1930.
You will find different necks/shoulders.


#11

[quote=“EOD”]Jean-Pierre I mean the differences between the modifications. Try to look up some from before 1908 (round nose) some from WW1 and then some from after 1930.
You will find different necks/shoulders.[/quote]

Alex,
I see no difference between the cases with round nose and the cases from WWII.

You can see that on the picture
The one on the left and the one on the right are the same

JP


#12

If we compare Russian factory drawings models of 1890, models of 1923, models of 1930 et models WWII, we can see the shoulder is at the same position (varying from 38.15 to 39.70) from the head.

This makes 1.5 mm varaition in the worse case.

38.15 been the minimum, it is a lot greater than the measurement we can find on the German ctge.

Therefore , my questions are :

  1. Are you sure it is a 7.62 Mosin ? Any drawing ?
  2. If yes why a so big difference ?
    (German people are very serious and the Mosin ctge was already an old ctge in 1917)

JP


#13

Jonny and others

I also have a fired case with that longer neck - lower shoulder of russian manufacture, headstamp T 16

Since it is fired I would expect some kind of fireforming if fired in a 1891 chamber, so the chamber that shot this round had a lower shoulder position. I hardly think that a M1891 or a round from WWII with their higher shoulder would ever chamber in that chamber.


#14

I agree with EOD. I have same experience with old Mosin-Nagant ctgs.


#15

thanks for your interest.
But I still do not understand.

Everybody is talking about different models of Mosin.
It would be interesting for me to know the different models.

I know the model 1891, then the model 1930.
Is there another model between both?
Alex said ther was another model during WWI (if I understand well)

And what are the different heights of the neck ?

Thanks
JP


#16

JP this neck is longer, hi go in usual chamber of barrel. When fire this types of case, she get shape of usual chamber without any problem when is brass good.


#17

Shoulder position on a rimmed case is not critical as long as it not too high. Within sensible limits it can be as low as you like. There are obvious benefits in having a ‘soft’ shoulder if you are liable to encounter any significantly variable chambers. You will find much variation in the shoulder profiles of .303 cartridges if you look at enough of them.


#18

[quote=“jeanpierre”]thanks for your interest.
But I still do not understand.

Everybody is talking about different models of Mosin.
It would be interesting for me to know the different models.

I know the model 1891, then the model 1930.
Is there another model between both?
Alex said ther was another model during WWI (if I understand well)

And what are the different heights of the neck ?

Thanks
JP[/quote]

The modifications were:
M1891 = round nose proj. and rounded case head
M1891/08 = pointed proj. (with adapted diameter) and rounded head
M1908/30 = pointed proj. (diameter as above) and “edgy bevel head”


#19

There are numerous M-N versions and makers in several countries, including the USA (and the US Army even used some M-Ns during WWI). One of the more interesting areas of M-N history involves those used by Finland, and there are many variants of Finnish M-N rifles and carbines, and at least one website devoted exclusively to just those. But as far as I know, the 7.62mm ammunition used in all M-Ns was basically much the same, at least dimensionally, with differences as previously noted.


#20

Dennis, the M1891 was actually not interchangeable with the M1891/08.