Unknown ctge


#1

Found in Canada, this ctge has a brass base and a brown paper tube.
It has a very thick rim and looks like a miniature snider



I don’t know if it is a shotshell or a regular ctge

Dimensions are :
Rim diameter 17.05 mm
Rim thickness 3.10 mm
Base diameter 15.35 mm
outside neck diameter 14.30 mm
inside neck diameter 12.90 mm
Case length : 51.7 mm

Do you have some idea?
Thanks
JP


#2

Have heard two stories on these & have 4 variations (all but 2 sold to me as #1 below).

  1. for shot out .577 Sniders
  2. a typical 24 ga British Thick rim variation.
    Now when you compare the two (a thick rim & this) these have more of a taper to the rim’s forward (mouth) side than a thick rim which is of a somewhat normal shape, only thicker.
    SO I’m inclined to think Snider due to forward rim shape/ taper but sure can’t say with any certainty.
    Canadian’s your 2¢ PLEASE

#3

Hello Pete,
thanks to have answering me

  1. Dimensions (rim diameter, base daimeter, aso) are too small to be a 24 gauge, (I think you made a mistake typing on the keyboard).

  2. Regarding a 28 Thick rim Gauge (Eley standard 1879):

  • base and rim diameters are Ok,
  • outside neck diameter is too small (14.30 instead of 15.60)
  • inside neck diameter is too small also (12.90 instaed of 14.00)
  • rim thickness is a lot too big (3.10 instead of 1.90)

Kynoch never designed a 28 Thick rim Gauge as standard

  1. Therefore, it could be:
  • a special order from Eley or Kynoch
  • an order from another manufacturer
  • not a shotshell
  1. Regarding the fact to shoot it in a conversion for a 577 Snider gun, I already have listened to this story.
    When was made this conversion ?
    By who ?
    Any info on this convertion ?
    Why to choose a special ctge and not a shotshell already avilable on the market ?

  2. I only have a NPE case. Do these ctges exist with ball loading ?

JP


#4

Hi JP
Well I didn’t check your measurements when I answered, and just assumed it was the 24 ga for the Snider. All of mine (so-called Snider) are headstamped 24 ga for what that is worth.
So that said, sorry but I don’t have an answer for you. It does have a very unusual rim proifile & I apologize for not looking closer.

May I ask how you know Kynoch NEVER designed a 28 Thick Rim?

As to the Snider conversion: I don’t know the time period, or who did (or how many different smiths performed) it. The Snider cartridge, having been made in all the different variations & types (Boxer & drawn) has variations in it’s rim (thickness and diameter), this forward tapered rim, on the so-called Snider shells should accommodate the various chambers with little gunsmithing. Re-doing various cambers would be much harder/more expensive than having a small order of shells made, OR perhaps Eley saw a market & offered / ran small lots?
I know this is not a satisfactory answer, and is only conjecture, explaining these tapered thick rim 24 ga shells, as we know Eley, Kynoch, Arsenals & Dominion offered drawn and Boxer shot shells for the various Snider chambers (Canadian & British).
Love to hear about these …

In re-reading your measurements you use “neck” as a point of reference, where exactly is the neck?


#5

Hi Pete,

  1. "May I ask how you know Kynoch NEVER designed a 28 Thick Rim?"
    I said “Kynoch never designed a 28 Gauge as standard”, meaning I never found reference in Kynoch catalogues of a 28 Gauge shell with rim thicker than normal (1.50 mm)
    Because of that I said : “it could be a special order from (Eley or) Kynoch”

Anyway if they exist, they are customers orders because the rims of the Kynoch standard are thinner than the rims of Eley standard

  1. “In re-reading your measurements you use “neck” as a point of reference, where exactly is the neck?”

It is the opposite side of the rear, meaning the open side.
How shall I call that ?

  1. When you say : “we know Eley, Kynoch, Arsenals & Dominion offered drawn and Boxer shot shells for the various Snider chambers (Canadian & British)” , do you mean these 24 Gauge shells are specially made for snider conversions and are not regular 24 Gauge shells ???

If they have the following dimensions:
Rim diameter :19.55 max
rim thickness: 2.20 max
base diameter: 17.05 max
neck diameter: 16.55max
they are regular shotshells (it is the 1879 Eley standard) and not special shotshells for snider;

Could you confirm that please ,

thanks
jp


#6

At the first look I would say its an shortened 14mm Mitrailleuse


#7

This ctg is too small in dia to fit a Snider. I have saw many Sniders in Canada bored out for 20 guage.


#8

Hi JP

[quote=“jeanpierre”]

  1. "May I ask how you know Kynoch NEVER designed a 28 Thick Rim?"
    I said “Kynoch never designed a 28 Gauge as standard”, meaning I never found reference in Kynoch catalogues of a 28 Gauge shell with rim thicker than normal (1.50 mm)
    Because of that I said : “it could be a special order from (Eley or) Kynoch”

Anyway if they exist, they are customers orders because the rims of the Kynoch standard are thinner than the rims of Eley standard

  1. “In re-reading your measurements you use “neck” as a point of reference, where exactly is the neck?”

It is the opposite side of the rear, meaning the open side.
How shall I call that ?

  1. When you say : “we know Eley, Kynoch, Arsenals & Dominion offered drawn and Boxer shot shells for the various Snider chambers (Canadian & British)” , do you mean these 24 Gauge shells are specially made for snider conversions and are not regular 24 Gauge shells ???[/quote]

Ok your #1- Now I understand & Ok thanks.
your #2- I’d think it perhaps might be better called the mouth? I think of a neck as the part above a shoulder.
#3 - Sorry to mislead, no I didn’t mean conventional shells for the Snider. I meant the numerous factory loadings of shot, not ball & using drawn brass or Boxer type cases with a paper sabot holding the shot.

As to the dims of my 4 different taper rimmed so-called Snider shot shells:
rim dia. 19.02 to 19.11 mm
rim thickness 2.19 to 2.41 mm
head or base 16.67 to 16.73 mm
mouth 16.17 to 16.23 mm
Now 2@ are low base shells, one a high base & the last a very high base with a two piece head (has the EBL triangular or shield shaped logo in the headstamp)
Hope this is of help & soory I can help with the shell that started this
Best
Pete


#9

Hello Pete,

Mouth is more appropriate, you are right.

Your 4 shells perfectly match the 24 thick rim gauge dimensions
(Eley changes the rim thickness from 2.20 to 2.40 after 1900. Don’t ask me why, I don’t know)

Thanks

Genkideskan suggests it could be a shortened 14 mm Mitrailleuse.
And indeed the base looks like very much to some De Riffie ctges I have (dimensions are not the same but the shape of the base is the same)

It is an interesting suggestion.
Could somebody help ?

Thanks again
JP

Regarding the unknown ctge