Unknown FA 29 round need ID


#1

I found this in a mixed lot of US military 30-40, 30-06, 30 Carbine and 7.62 NATO that I picked up from a pawn shop some years ago. I have never been able to ID it. Anyone have any idea what this might be? Military experimental, wildcat, fake, some ones idea of a joke what?

Headstamp is F A 29, case is brass, small rifle sized nickel primer (primer is crimped) GM FMJ bullet (does not attract a magnet). There is powder in the case or at least something that sounds like powder.

Dimensions are:
Case length: 2.025
Rim dia: 0.447
Base dia: 0.447
Shoulder dia: 0.428
Neck dia: 0.297
Bullet dia: 0.269
OAL: 2.874

Any help or ideas appreciated!
Sht_LE


#2

I beleive it is a 276 Pedersen. There a quite a number of variations produced betwen 1923 and 1929, all by Frankford Arsenal.


#3

I am sure Ron was thinking only about American-made .276 rounds when he said only FA made the. While I don’t remember the dates, maker, etc., they were also made in England, I had a full Perdersen Rifle clip of .176 from England at one time. Perhaps one of the British collectors can fill in the gap on headstamp and years made. The British (Vickers-Armstrong) also made Pedersen rifles, and some carbines, for a trials in England. In the 1960s, our store had most of the rifles that were NOT used in the trials (extras), While Martin B. Retting Gun Shop in Culver City, California, had those that WERE used in the trials. While are rifles were in better shape than his - most brand new with only storage dings, Retting got most of the avaailable clips! We had only one, which we retained at the store. Don’t know whatever happened to it when the store closed. Interesting, toggle-action rifle!


#4

John–I see you survived another SLICS. I’m surprised that you are back home already.

I only mentioned the FA rounds because that is what he had. You are right about the British also experimented with it. In fact, they probably produced more varities than FA did.
Labbett & Mead published a whole pamphlet on the British .256in. & .276in. Ammunition.


#5

Thanks for the input guys, but I don’t think it is a 276 Pederson. It does not match up with any of the case types listed in History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition Vol.I by Hackley, Woodin and Scranton. The Pederson cases I have seen have more taper, where this has more parallel sides and a sharper shoulder. The bullet diameter also does not match. On this round the bullet dia is 0.269 on the 276 Pederson rounds I have examined and the references I have the 276 bullet dia runs from 0.285 to 0.283. It is closer to in appearance and bullet dia to some of the Frankford Arsenal 256 experimentals, but does not match any that I have information on. So, any other ideas? Or any information that supports this being a variation of the Pederson?

Any help appreciated,
Sht_LE

BTW, Kynoch was one of the British makers of the 276 Pederson. I have one in my collection headstamped K30 .276


#6

Hi,

I agree with Sht_LE.

I have been looking at the same information and think there is either a problem with the identification or the measurements of the bullet diameter.

I am no expert on this cartridge but it does not match the 276 Pederson descriptions in the above mentioned reference.

Perhaps the cartridge started life originally as a 276 Pederson but is some type of wildcat.

The case length, rim diameter, base diameter, and case length match some of the Pederson case types but the bullet diameter, neck diameter, and case taper are real problems for this to be a 276 Pederson. The above example is basically a straight walled case not a tapered case like the Pederson.

Another problem, where does a .270 bullet diameter come from? A 270 Winchester has a .277 inch diameter bullet and a 6.5 mm has a .264 inch diameter, while the 7mm has a .284 inch diameter. The 276 Pederson had a bullet diameter of .283 to .286 inches.

From the dimensions provided this cartridge would seem more like the 7mm-08 having a 2.035 case length and .473 inch rim diameter. Maximum on the neck diameter for the 7mm-08 is about .314 inch but with a little outside neck turning this difference might be eliminated.

The 276 Pederson FB-9892 case could have been a starting point as this ammunition was released to the public under the CMP and those dimensions are closest to the case dimensions in question but still doesn’t explain the 270 inch bullet diameter.

I am not excluding either possibility but I don’t think we have all the information yet.

Heavyiron


#7

Sht_LE

I agree with heavyiron, the bullet diameter is the problem.

When Pedersen developed his rifle in 1927 he tried to convince the Military of the advantages of a smaller caliber cartridge (sound familiar?) According to Gen Hatcher, they took his suggestions seriously and extensively tested .256, .276 and .30 bullets, including penetration and wounding effects in animals. The 256 was found to be the most lethal but they opted for the 276 and the Pedersen rifle. It seemed on the verge of adoption when the high command decided not to change the caliber of the service rifle.

I have not seen any documentation of what the 256 cartridge looked like but I suppose it’s possible that it was chambered in either Pedersen’s rifle using the Pedersen case, or in the Springfield using the '06 case. But even allowing a generous .005" goove depth it still wouldn’t make it to a .269 diameter bullet.

heavyiron is correct again that there were several wildcats in the 1930s and 1940s using surplus 276 Pedersen brass. The only ones I have ever seen were 22 or 6mm caliber but that’s not to say that there weren’t 270 ones also.

That’s my 2 cents worth. Now someone will probably post the REAL story and shoot us all down. But that’s OK too.

Ray


#8

Thanks guys, I rechecked it. The bullet is 0.269" in Dia. I checked it with a digital micrometer, a digital caliper, and a dial caliper. All three gave the same reading.

Right now I am leaning toward this being a wildcat.

However, like Ray says,

“Now someone will probably post the REAL story and shoot us all down.”

Any takers ;-)


#9

Ray–Here are some of the varations of the .256 cartridge.

As you can see, there was a lot of variation. This image is from Labbett & Meads work on the British .256 and .276 Cartridges

They also state that there were at least 48 variations of the .276 Ball cartridges, including at least 30 case types with significant diminisions differances, plus, AP, Dummy and Blanks. All of this was work done in England. I’m not sure how many FA variations there were, but there were severial.