Unknown gunsmith or ctges manufacturer


#1

More and more difficult now !
The only info I have are the initilas :
F. D. & Co London

Any idea ?
Thanks
JP


#2

J-P: There was a “Frank Day, a gunmaker listed at 1 & 2 Fenchurch Street, London E.C., in 1878-80.” There was also “Doumoulin, F. & Co. - London, England and Liége, Belgium, 1897-1899.”

There was also Frank Dyke & Co., which seems a more likely candidate. “Maker of guns, rifles, revolvers, and cartridges, London, England, 1893-1946 or later.”

Gardner Book previously cited.

More on Dyke: "Frank Dyke & Company, Ltd. An important wholesaler of sporting guns and ammunition, and the principal distributor of Mayer & Grammelspacher Diana Guns since the 1920s, Frank Dyke began trading in 1883 from premises in Dowgate Hill, London E.C. Then the business moved successively to 21 Addle Street, Aldermanberry E.C. in 1892-94, to 5, 6 & 7 St. George’s Avenue, Basinghall Street E.C., in 1895, and to Union Street, London S.E.in 1908. Dyke had particularly unlucky experiences with ammunition, including a serious explosion in the Union Street premises in 1908. In addition to firearms and airguns, Dyke also handled shotgun cartridges marked “Rabbit”, “Shamrock”, and “Yellow Wizard.” These were often loaded for small-scale clients and may not display identification. Some of the guns handled by Dyke prior to 1939 will be found with the brandname “Shamrock” or simply a shamrock trademark. Depite the destruction of the warehouses during the Second World War, Dyke remained in London until 1966, when a move to Ernest Avenue, West Norwood, occured.

Reference: Greenhill/Walter page 159

John Moss


#3

Much of Frank Dyke’s metallic ammunition was made for him by SFM. I have a number of labels from SFM with “F.D. & Co. London” underneath the Shamrock brand name. Source is the SFM label reference collection.

Chris P.


#4

I’m posting only to say that the name Frank Dyke was known to me in the 70s as a name associated with budget shotgun cartridges although I know nothing of their history. They were certainly around and I bought and used them. I believe that at that time they were using Fiocci cases, other than that I can add no detail.
At the time they were competing with cheap imported S&B MkII and Baikal cartridges against which they were uncompetitive in terms of price.


#5

The F. D. & Co. is Frank Dyke


#6

Thanks to all for you research work !

F.D. & Co is Frank Dyke, and is related to the Shamrock trade mark.

This name associated with the brand name Shamrock is found on RF ctges labels made by SFM but I didn’t know the signification of the words.

Where it is getting more complicated now, is the fact I have also pictures of hstps of shotshells with the shamrock picture and in this case the customer is :
“Mac Carthy”, always in England


The design looks the same.

Questions :
Is Mac Carthy one of the member (director, business representative, aso) of F.D. & Co ?
Is Mac Carthy another company or gunsmith ?
Thanks
JP


#7

The Shamrock brand is also found on the case wall printing of shot gun shells, and sometimes that is it for identification. Just the gauge on the headstamp.

As to the Mac Carthy, I have that headstamp and have attributed it as Belgium, perhaps French? Please prove me incorrect?
Nothing printed on the case and a 6.45mm, European size primer if memory serves.

I’ve not seen a Frank Dyke & Co. shell with the Mac Carthy style headstamp, not that I’ve seen a lot / everything he offered.


#8

[quote=“PetedeCoux”]
As to the Mac Carthy, I have that headstamp and have attributed it as Belgium, perhaps French? Please prove me incorrect?
Nothing printed on the case and a 6.45mm, European size primer if memory serves.
.[/quote]

Positively French and not Belgian.
Iy is a manufacturing from SFM for an English customer

JP


#9

Had it attributed to a European maker due to the primer and style of the headstamp, but Mac Carthy sure sounds Irish.
Thanks for the positive ID.


#10

Thefore Mc Carthy is perhaps not F.D. & Co
The flower looks like but are not exactly the same.
does any body knows a Mc Carthy gunsmith in Ireland (or Scotland)?
thanks
JP


#11

Shamrock Brand.
Wholesale Arms & Ammunition Trading Company is the earliest user of the trademark that I have found so far (1894-1898). They became…
McCarthy, Buck & Co, 40 St. Andrews Hill, London, (1899-1900), 11 & 12 St. Andrews Hill (1901) who, in 1901, were bought out by…
Buck & Company, 11 & 12 St. Andrews Hill, (1902-1904) who then somehow became…
Buck & Paterson, 66/8 Union St., Southwark, London (1904-1905). I am not certain if the latter used the shamrock trademark (I have no label proof).
Then along comes our old friends Frank Dyke & Co. for whom SFM made Shamrock brand ammunition. The SFM records suggest they started making the shamrock brand ammunition in about 1905 for FD&Co, which makes sense.


#12

Hello Chris,
I am afraid not to understand well because of my bad english !

You said :
"Wholesale Arms & Ammunition Trading Company became Mc Carthy, Buck & Co, They were bought out by Buck & Company who became Buck & Paterson."
This I understand.
And after :
"Then along comes our old friends Frank Dyke & Co"
Does it mean they were bought by Frank Dyke & Co ??

Thanks
JP


#13

Hi JP,

From advertising, we know that Buck & Company used the “Shamrock” trademark until 1904. About that time the company became Buck & Patterson who only lasted until 1905 (According to the postal directories). About 1905 Frank Dyke started using the “Shamrock” trademark.

I do not know if Frank Dyke bought the Buck & Paterson company or just bought the rights to the “Shamrock” trademark. I am still researching this.

Sorry I was not very clear in my earlier post.