Unknown shotshell headstamp

1491d35079d60df038306a19bcab6118

Found this on a polish website with metal detecting finds.
Does anybody have an idea??

My first thought was Eduard Kettner.

Regards rené

Rene,

I think you are right…as Köln at this time was still written with C (Coeln)…
It was before the german second grammatic writings change (in 1901) (Coblenz to Koblenz, Carlsruhe to Karlsruhe, Cassel to Kassel a.s.o.)
But it was not always immediate changed. Cassel in Headstamps was still used in 1918 a.s.o…
Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks!
Would love to see the entire case one time.

Regards rené

Peter - on the City naming issue wrt German grammatic changes. If Carlsruhe was changed to Karlsruhe in 1901 why is it that all the Lorenz/DM-K catalogs (ie pre 1900) use Karlsruhe - even the German (ie non-Export) catalogs.

I know that “Carlsruhe” was used in headstamps (much scarcer than “Karlsruhe”) and these are sometimes described as “Export” headstamps but does that make sense ?.

The change of 1901 made it only clear, to get same writings in Germany, Switzerland and Austria.
This doesnt mean, that the writings in local places as Karlsruhe, have not taken place earlier before 1901…
So the changes where just following the use of the wordings already made by the public…
The same happens reversed with Cassel, which was used much longer even after the changes to Kassel where made “on Paper” in 1901.

Languages are always changing with time (and get sometimes adapted to the Intelligence quotient of people :-)) ), I think :-((

Peter

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So Peter does this mean we can assume that the "Carlsruhe” hs was likely used before the “Karlsruhe” hs ? or was it likely an “Export” hs ?

Brad,
with your excellent knowledge of German ammunition I suspect you are teasing Peter a little.
Karlsruhe was in the state of Baden, while Köln, Kassel, Koblenz were located in Prussia. That is a difference of mentality at least as large as between Texas and Washington, DC. I do not know any New Zealanders to make a comparison. :-))
Peter is right regarding 1901 and he also mentioned continued use of C… spelling [in Prussia] as late as 1918. When I first visited Strasbourg, France in the 1970s, I still saw a German “Thüre zu!” sign (Close door! after 1901: Türe zu!) on a front door, 1901, 1918, 1940 and 1945 notwithstanding.
Base line: Prussia dominated in Germany, but did not control everything. Particularly the southern German states (Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria, also Saxony) had their own way of doing things. They still do today.

P.S. A remarkable achievement of post WW2 Germany is the successful merger of arch enemies Baden and Württemberg into one single state where IWK/DWM, Mauser, Heckler & Koch, Walther, Anschütz, Krieghoff and others were/are located.

Edit: My apologies for writing Brian instead of Brad.

Brad, I have never seen DM Lorenz documentation, letters or ads from before 1881, but after that date the name used is “Karlsruhe”. Also, publications dated between 1878 and 1880 using “Carlsruhe” instead of “Karlsruhe” are very hard to find, and none of them can be considered official. In any case, the oldest reference I have date from 1879 and says “Karlsruhe”.

This is the oldest ad I have (1881):

Regards,

Fede

Thanks Fede - that info matches what I have.

This brings us back to the question: Why did Lorenz use a “Carlsruhe” hs ??

image

Most of the c10 examples I am aware of are on foreign (to Germany) calibers: MS (Swiss), H (Norwegian), MOe (Austrian) - not on MB ! So maybe this really was an “Export” hs" for countries that knew the city as “Carlsruhe”.

Thanks for the contributions everyone - sorry to sidetrack the original topic René !

Hi Brad,
No problem at all.
I believe this is what the forum is made for, solving riddles and questions.
My question is answered, and the rest is a welcome bonus.

And to stay with this discussion.
I also have a shotshell for Valentin Hafner from Cassel, which now is Kassel.
Sorry for mistakes in the name, I have not got the case at hand right now.

Regards rené

Hi René
I have this shotshell from E. K.
hirschmarke%2016brun%20s
But it has a different headstamp


Just to show not must of help
Lars

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Hi lars,

Thanks for showing this one.
A very nice one.

Regards rené

Here is the häfner one from Cassel.

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Man, those guys KNEW how to label ammunition, makes the stuff we see on the shelves today BORING! Very cool!!
"Great Hunting Patrol
Valentin Hafner [1847~1921 +/-, his father, Wilhelm Haefner, was a gunmaker]
Royal Court Gunsmith [Royal Court of Hessen, monarchy ended in 1918 after ‘The Great War’]
Cassel [or Kassel, in Hessen, Germany]
Frankfurterstraße 38 [address Frankfurter Straße 38]
Telephone 3305