US military weapons


#1

Hello !

  1. In which weapons was used the 30-40 Krag in the US Army ?
  2. Same about 30-03
  3. Same baout 30-06
  4. Same about 45-70
  5. Same about 45 ACP
  6. same about 36 long Colt

I know some of them but need the exact designation

Thanks


#2

in 45 ACP
pistol Colt 1911 A1
pistol Mk 23 mod 0
submachinegun M 3 "grease gun"
is most important in service in US ARMY with 45 ACP caliber


#3

[quote=“samourai”]in 45 ACP
pistol Colt 1911 A1
pistol Mk 23 mod 0
submachinegun M 3 "grease gun"
is most important in service in US ARMY with 45 ACP caliber[/quote]

Hi !
There is also the Colt 1911 (the fisrt one), the Colt (or S&W) revolver, the Thomson (at least two models), and so on.
I shot a lot all these weapons , but I don’t know the exact designation, and it is that I am looking for.
What is a MK23 Mod O ??
JP


#4

Thye Mk.23 is a pistol that was developed by H&K following a request in 1991 from the United States SOCOM for a Handgun to be used for offensive rather than defensive purposes. They opted for the .45 ACP cartridge over the 9x19 for increased stopping power.

The Mk.23 pistol is known to quite a few of my generation, as it is a popular weapon to feature in movies and computer games.

For more information see
http://www.world.guns.ru/handguns/hg12-e.htm


#5

JP I won’t try to give you all the variants, but this should give you a start. I’m referencing a book by Ian Hogg / John Weeks

45ACP
M1928A1 (Thompson)
M1A1 Thompson (blowback version of the 1918)
Reising M-50 and M-55
M3A1 (Grease gun)
Ingram MAC 10 & 11 (limited usage)
Colt 1911 / 1911A1
S&W and Colt 1917 revolvers
Should we include the “Liberator” ?

30-06
1903 Springfield Rifle
1903A3 Springfield Rifle
M-1916, 1917, 1918 “Marlin” LMG
Browning 1917 -1919 MG (multiple variants)
M-1941, 1944 Johnson LMG
M-1917 "Enfield"
M1918 BAR
M1 Garand
M-1941 Johnson Rifle
M-70 Winchester (limited usage)
M-700 Remington (limited usage)

Other
M-1892 (30-40 Krag)
M-1895 Navy (6mm LEE Navy)
Colt 1895 “potato digger” MG in 6mm Navy, 30-40 Krag, 30-03? and 30-06


#6

Thnak you very much!
it is excatly what I needed for my article
thanks


#7

JP,
The 38 long Colt was first used by the US Navy in the Colt Model 1889 Navy double action revolver, and by the Army and Navy in Colt New Army (and Navy) Model 1892.

The 45-70 was first used in the Springfield Model 1873 rifle and carbine.

The 30-03 was the predecessor to the 30-06 with a round nosed bullet and a slightly longer case, and was used in the 1903 Springfield.


#8

Nitpicking again.

The 45-70 was never used in the Carbine. Carbine ammo was 45-55-405 and rifle was 45-70-405 and later 45-70-500.

Tailgunner- I’m sure you mistyped when you said “blowback version” of the M 1918 Thompson. All of the Thompsons were blowback, the original being technically a retarded or delayed blowback.

There were also several other 45ACP and 9mm Para weapons that saw limited use. The Hyde 109, U.D. M42, S&W M76, are a few that come to mind.

Don’t forget the 30 Carbine.

Nitpicker Ray :) :)


#9

I have never heard of a .45 ACP Ingram MAC. Wasn’t the MAC 10 9x19 and the MAC 11 .380 ACP? Did the US military even use the MAC 11? I could well be wrong.


#10

Good point, Ray. However, can you honestly say that the .45-70 was NEVER used in the carbine? It may not have been intended for the carbine to fire the heavier loads, but once those early cartridges were removed from the box, there was no way to distinguish one from the other until you actually fired it in the carbine. I’ll bet it wasn’t uncommon for a ‘ground pounder’ to slip a .45-70 or two into a cavalry troopers cartridge box.


#11

Guy

Correct. I’m sure those soldiers in the 1870s were just as mischevious as today’s. And, you’re right, firing a Rifle cartridge in the Carbine was immediately apparant upon jerking the trigger! :( The big 500 grain Rifle loads much more so than the 405 grain. But it would be a very ignorant cavalryman who could be fooled by that trick.

Ray


#12

J-P: In the .45 there is also the M1 Thompson. The M1A1 was a modified M1 - I forget the mechanics, but it had to do with the firing pin. There was also the M1928 Thompson SMG and the M1921/28 U.S. Navy overstamp Thompson SMG, as well as the aforementioned M1928A1. These 21/28s were Tommy guns that were originally the Model 1921, and were modified to reduce the rate of fire, had the year-model date overstamped to “1928” and were purchased primarily by the U.S. Navy. I am not sure if any true M1921 Thompsons were used in actual serial issue by the military or not. Obviously, they were tested.

Some of the guns listed were not essentially U.S. military issue, but rather made for other uses, like air-dropping to partisans. I am not sure that the UD42 was ever in any kind of general issue with U.S. Forces. The Hyde was strictly a trials gun - a design that didn’t make it. The Liberator single-shot pistol would fall into the same category as the UD42 SMG. Made for uses other than issue to the U.S. military, who had no internal need what-so-ever for a “gun to get a gun”. I have never heard of the Smith and Wesson M76 being adopted by any of the U.S. military services. Could be, but news to me. The Ingram probably saw some use in Special Ops, although I don’t know why, since it is a piece of crap. I fired a silenced version rather extensively, and what a miserable gun it was. Yes, it was .45 Caliber, but I wasn’t interested enough in that tin can to see what the model number is, and still am not. Jams, inaccurate with or without the silencer, and difficult to handle when it got hot (yes, that IS a consideration. One is not always standing in front of a paper target when they are using these things, and a bad burn on the hand creates a casualty). Just my opinion. I know there are people who think the MACs are the cat’s meow.

Still, when you really try to think of a list of all the standard issue or substitute-standard issue small arms used by the U.S., it is staggering. We often chide the Japanese and the Italians for having two standard infantry calibers at the same time, but we did also - .30-06 and .30 Carbine. We had almost as big a group of small arms as countries that were regularly using any captured weapons they could get, and all were home-grown!

In the .30 Carbine, by the way, there were the M1, M1A1 (folding stock for airborne troops), M2 (selective fire) and M3 (any of the others fitted with an infra-red night vision device.

The Navy fliers during WWII carried Smith and Wesson .38 Special Victory Model revolvers, and the USAF Air Police have used the Smith and Wesson Model 15 Combat Masterpiece .38 Special Revolver. There were also the Colt and Smith and Wesson 2" barrel .38 Special revolvers with aluminum frames and aluminum ChYlinders (M13? - running late for an appointment and can’t go look it up) issued to air crews for survival purposes. A myriad of handguns were used in Viet Nam by tunnel rats and air crews. I don’t know how many of those i have seen in pictures were “issue” and how many were personal weapons. In the early days of U.S. involvement in primarily an advisory status, there was a Dept. of Defense Circular advising U.S. military personnel to take a personally-owned weapon to the RVN as there was no guarantee that ARVN could supply them with a weapon, due to shortages there. Later, that advisory was rescinded and taking personal arms was prohibited. A Captain I worked with in my civilian job carried a Ruger .357 Magnum Blackhawk in his virst assignment with MAAG V. A good revolver, but not exactly my choice for a personal defense weapon in a military combat zone.

It makes you wonder how all these weapons of different calibers were readily supplied with ammunition by the military. The logistics people did a pretty good job!


#13

John

I believe the Thompson 1928A1 was identical to the original civilian Model 1921. There were a few changes made to it prior to 1942 but the M1 was where virtually all of the mods were made. The M1A1 differed only by eliminating the firing pin and hammer and machining a tit on the end of the bolt instead.

We still had a few of the original 1928A1 Thompsons in our ships armories as late as 1955. When I was stationed in the “Mothball Fleet”, a sailor or two tried to liberate one for their own collection. They are probably still living in Leavenworth KS.

And you are correct about the Hyde, U.D. M42, S&W M76, et al seeing very limited use. I think the Hyde was only one that was actually adopted as a standard issue.

Ray


#14

I saw a thread on another forum a while ago where someone said that a friend of theirs carried a .30-30 Levergun in Vietnam. What they would have done about ammo I have no idea.


#15

[quote=“Falcon”]
I have never heard of a .45 ACP Ingram MAC. Wasn’t the MAC 10 9x19 and the MAC 11 .380 ACP? Did the US military even use the MAC 11? I could well be wrong.[/quote]

Falcon
The book I referred to earlier in this thread is “Military Small Arms of the 20th Century” by Hogg & Weeks. They are the ones that listed most of the above, (and show the Mac-10 in both 9mm & 45ACP).
The other source I used, and the one I pulled the Ingram info from, is Brassey’s "Infantry Weapons of the World (1950-1975)"
As far as usage goes, I’d suspect that it was a limited special forces issue. The Rem & Winchester rifles I mentioned were used by Marine snipers in Vietnam, before the adaption of the M40A rifle (in the early days they had no other choice but to use standard production “sporting” rifles)


#16

Lol ! John!
Do you remember when I received two Mac 11 (9 mm para) in the room we shared in Chicago ??
It was the good time, isn’t it ?? lol!
Macs are pieces of junk, I agree, but people are dreaming about them ! lol!
More seriouoly , I will make a list of the weapons and you will correct me.

What about the gatling machine guns ? they were in 45-70, but also in 30-40 Krag, weren’t they ?

JP


#17

Ray - the Hyde never reached issue. Only about 400 were made for field trials. By the time they found a contractor to make it, the M3 SMG was already well on its way to becoming standard, and the Hyde was shelved. I can’t say that no Hyde was ever used in combat by a member of the U.S. Armed Forces, but I personally doubt it, and have never seen a picture of one in the hands of a soldier overseas.

The UM42 did make it to production, and I have seen pictures of both a member of the FFI and a member of the French Maquis armed with one, as well as one in the hands of a member of Holgar Dansk, the non-Communist Danish underground force.

You are correct that the Model 1921 TSMG and the Model 1928 are almost the same gun, but not quite. There were internal changes to the actuator, the recoil spring, the buffer and the firing pin spring, all aimed at reducing the rate of fire from 800 RPM to something a bit more manageable, usually quoted as 600 to 700 RPM for the M1928. I don’t know what modification changed the designation from M1928 to M1928A1 off hand. there probably were no unaltered Model 1921 TSMGs officially used by the U.S. Armed Forces. So, at any rate, the Model 1921 and the Model 1928 are, technically, not the same gun with simply a different name.

I like the 1928 Thompson. It is a bit heavy, especially with a loaded 50 round drum in it, and not easy to control in long bursts, but on semi-auto, it is a deadly accurate carbine at short range, and in short bursts, it is fairly manageable even by an amateur like me. My dear friend Gene Jones, a former marksmanship instructor with the FBI and exhibition shooter for them as well, now deceased and sorely missed, was great with a tommy gun, right up to firing a full 10-round magazine in one burst (an exhibition trick, and useless in the real world, he said himself). I heard one old-time agent on the range compare Gene to Tom Box, an old-time Border Patrol Agent who had the reputation for being the best man with a Tommy Gun that ever lived. One thing about a Thompson - they work every time.


#18

I love how this has evolved into a dicussion on the guns as well.
Here are my 2 cents:

The MAC-10 in .45 is a fact. Probably never an issue weapon, but I’m betting a few “operators” had ready access to them. All the MACs are bullet hoses, so really only good for room work. And Ramboing.
Thompsons reign supreme as a subgun(just below the MP5). The Reising is as, if not more, accurate and long ranged as the Thompson. Both are heavy vs the newer offerings.
I’ll stop there, but will include the fact that of the guns listed so far, I have had the pleasure of firing all but three. I’m sure John M and Ray appreciate that feat. Them bein’ gun guys, and all. Sadly, I did not bother checking headstamps prior to firing, so lawd knows how many priceless collector’s cartridges I sent downrange. Buried the hulls. I’m selling maps and “mineral rights”.


#19

I owned an M1928A1 in real life and shot it a lot. With the vertical fore-grip and a lot of practice it was possible to keep a full 50 round drum on a silhouette target at across-the-room distance. In Alaska me and a couple of my buddies had a “machine gun” club. We had my TSMG, a BAR, an M2 Carbine, a Browning M1917, an Ingram 9mm, and an AR 15 full auto. We would spend 6 days a week loading ammo and one day shooting it. That was back in those quaint days when an honest law-abiding citizen was allowed to own such things with nothing more than $200 for a license and the OK of a LEO.

In my Navy days I had the pleasure of having access to most of the SMGs and an unlimited supply of ammo. I had to indoctrinate new SPs (Shore Patrol) in their use, especially the TSMG. Since they were scared spitless to start with, I would shoot a few rounds with my left hand on my chin and the butt against my palm just to show them how little it kicked. After that they couldn’t get enough shooting. I had to chase them away because they were eating into my ammo supply :) :)

Ray


#20

For what it is worth as to actual weapons and ammunition used by the U S military. The 4th U S Cavalry campaign in the LOCO outbreak in 1882 in Arizona were armed with second model Hotchkiss CARBINES. The troopers insisted on using Rifle cartridges because they hit harder. (The Smoke Signal of the Tucson Corral of Westerners fall 1993). John as to the 30 Carbine M-3. We had them in Korea and they were almost worthless on quiet nights as the high voltage for the screen was developed by a vibrator coil that whistled so loud it could be heard farther away than you could see with the scope! Was fun just to turn one on and watch the North Koreans duck and run.