US silenced cartridge XM76 30-06


#1

1960s version of the Mondragon piston cartridge. More piston- no gas hole.


#2

WHOA!! Now [u]that[/u] is one [u]NEAT[/u] item!

Thanks for sharing it!

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#3

Compared to what we developed instead it is horse and buggy technology. I have articles on the subject ready but 9/11 totally roadblocked that.


#4

Good point, but then in the 1960s, we wrote programs on punch cards fed into room-sized computers which had less capability than today’s average desktop system. Etc.

Even if not leading edge, knowing the historical process - both the dead ends and the success stories - is at the core of this field and a large part of what makes it so interesting.

I’m still delighted to see what is not classified! Thanks again.

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#5

Enjoy ! I have a dupe for trade.


#6

John,
The guy who designed the silent cartridge (at least the one in 30-06) was James V. Dunham, who lived in Jenkintown, PA. It has always amused me (and I suspect you too) that something is classified from a military point of view but then they allow the guy who designed it to apply for and receive a patent which puts it squarely in the public domain !!! His patent was #4,173,186.


#7

Yeah, and like I would have a duplicate of anything even remotely in that league! LOL! Thanks for the additional images.

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#8

Right you are ! Do you have a copy of the patent to post ? The current adminstration has reclassified everything bio/chem/atomic etc. back to WW1. Much of which is already published. However; the law you break today is the one you swing for. Sadam and co. come to mind.


#9

Complete patent filing for 4,173,186 is available on line through Google; drawings, claims, abstract.

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#10

Here it is:
patentpdf.net/US4173186.pdf


#11

Having fired quite a few silenced & suppressed weapons, rifles, pistols & sub machine guns, with sub sonic and “normal” ammunition, never has the noise of the firing pin fall been considered a problem.

What are these special targets you refer too ?

Simon


#12

Class “A” targets and/or their security. etc.


#13

Having fired quite a few silenced & suppressed weapons, rifles, pistols & sub machine guns, with sub sonic and “normal” ammunition, never has the noise of the firing pin fall been considered a problem.

What are these special targets you refer too ?Simon[/quote]

The firing pin fall of a 30-06 rifle is quite loud when snapped on a quiet night indoors or out. Take one to work and snap it when it is quiet and see if anyone notices. This is why electric primers were used in most special purpose cartridges. Even these are difficult to silence but far quieter than the mechanical firing pin.


#14

[quote]The firing pin fall of a 30-06 rifle is quite loud when snapped on a quiet night indoors or out. Take one to work and snap it when it is quiet and see if anyone notices. This is why electric primers were used in most special purpose cartridges. Even these are difficult to silence but far quieter than the mechanical firing pin.
[/quote]

But the discharge of the weapon itself masks and is louder than the sound of the firing pin. Never have I been aware of the sound of the firing pin when I’ve been firing silenced/suppressed weapons nor when standing by someone firing silenced/suppressed weapons have I been aware of it. In fact I have never heard of any user saying "no we cant use that weapon on Class A screaming targets because the firing pin is too loud.
Simon


#15

[b]Gentlemen!

I believe you are BOTH correct!

It depends on the weapons system involved![/b]

In Kent’s book about German 8mm ammunition, he devotes several pages to the specialized round allegedly intended to be used to kill Hitler (yes, I know the purpose of the loading is now disputed . . . this characterization is to specify the system, not identify its purpose). He also speaks of being present at night when the rifle’s owner fired some rounds:

I no longer have the other source (discussion of OSS activities), but I remember the anecdote vividly. Agents had requested a completely flashless, completely silent, firearm for use in the field. Donovan’s legion of experts delivered a .22 RF semi-auto design (carbine?) which met the specification. He was so delighted he immediately took it over to show FDR. The President was on the phone, so Donovan placed a sandbag in a nearby chair, emptied a clip into it and sat down to wait. When the call was completed and FDR looked up, Donovan simply pointed to the decimated bag spilling sand. The President made a Reagan-esque remark about him being glad it was Donovan and not some other Republican who was carrying the firearm.

So there, I would submit, is the root of the disagreement above - two different systems, two different experiences. In the instant case, perhaps two different sets of experiences, but both valid.

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#16

[quote=“Simon”][quote]The firing pin fall of a 30-06 rifle is quite loud when snapped on a quiet night indoors or out. Take one to work and snap it when it is quiet and see if anyone notices. This is why electric primers were used in most special purpose cartridges. Even these are difficult to silence but far quieter than the mechanical firing pin.
[/quote]

But the discharge of the weapon itself masks and is louder than the sound of the firing pin. Never have I been aware of the sound of the firing pin when I’ve been firing silenced/suppressed weapons nor when standing by someone firing silenced/suppressed weapons have I been aware of it. In fact I have never heard of any user saying "no we cant use that weapon on Class A screaming targets because the firing pin is too loud.
Simon[/quote] APPARENTLY I am not making the point to your satisfaction. Please feel free to make all the noise you want.


#17

NICE MODERATION,THAT. The stated purpose of a COVERT mission is to effect the mission and remain COVERT. One might recall the CIA electric handgun displayed at the Church Commission hearings in congress some years ago. This weapon is nearly silent. It, along with several other weapons was designed with a set of parameters in mind which included a decibel level for operational NOISE. The goal is to make NO NOISE . Weapon choice is mission determinate. If your mission is truely designed to be COVERT. The goal is for NO NOISE which would alert and pricipitate adverse reaction. NEARLY ALL SO CALLED SILENCED WEAPONS ARE NOT ANYWHERE NEAR SILENT. THEY ARE NOISE REDUCED. A true silent weapon is very difficult to design. Here is another test for you to try; dry fire any mechanical firearm next to one of the sentries in front of Buckingham Palace and see if there is a reaction from the other one. Firing pin fall is an undesireable noise in many covert missions.


#18

I think we’ll just have to disagree on the importance of firing pin fall and Class A screaming targets.
Simon


#19

In any covert action of your choice you are welcome to make all the noise you want and see how it works out. If you have training in removal of sentries,quietly, you know that you do not stab them in the back and let them scream. You minimize their ability to call out ;either Fairborne style or otherwise. Everyone is welcome to their opinion in the free world and design protocols represent someones opinion. A serious amount of effort and money has been spent to overcome the sound of mechanical firing pin fall and all are welcome to their opinion of that as well. Since this is a site related to the ammunition the discussion has gone way off subject. Agreement does not alter facts. The aim of covert ammunition design is to reduce weapon noise to acceptable levels. Choose your parameters of comfort and enjoy ! Which lethal weapon is better for a covert mission; one which makes 1)no noise,2)some noise,3)lots of noise? Good luck ! PS the CIA gun mentioned above ONLY makes the sound of the electric firing pin fall. Church committe hearings published article "CIA researchers also came up with an array of James Bond weaponry that could use the shellfish toxin and other poisons as ammunition. To illustrate his testimony, Colby( Director of CIA) handed a pistol to Committee Chairman Frank Church. Resembling a Colt .45 equipped with a fat telescopic sight, the gun fires a toxin-tipped dart, almost silently and accurately up to 250 ft. Moreover, the dart is so tiny


#20

new photo