Werder Carabine Round?

a few days ago i received my werder carabine from herman/munich.
i took out the 11,5x35r round of my collection and took some pictures, find one attached.
inspecting the round, some questiones entered my brain, maybe anyone can help to clear my head again … :-)

i have no idea about the manufacturer of this round …
i’m not sure if it will be a werder carabine round at all …
checking the dimmensiones with the drawing at municion.org the round should be an werder carabine ammunition, also it fits perfect when loading it to the werder carabine.

any ideas about the origin of the round ???

regards, wolfganggo …

This is not my field at all but the Werder carbine should have used a case with a Mauser base. The specialists here will certainly tell us soon what cartridge you have there.

The case appears to have been made by U. M. C. . Folded head design with Berdan primer.
M. Rea

I’ve got both the rifle and the pistol round, all have the same base, I had never see an other kind of base than your.

Hi wolfganggo, this is indeed a 11,5 x 35 R Carbine & Pistol M/69 round and I’m aware of only two manufacturers: Utendoerffer and Gévelot (there are also rounds loaded by Hauptlaboratorium München). The base of yours looks like a French product.

I believe the UMC-type folded head case is correct for the Werder pistol-carbine cartridge. The cartridge was in production before development of the solid head A-base cartridge case, tho I’m sure that type could have been used in later production. Jack

I agree with Fede. Utendoerffer was the original producer of this round shortly after the longer M69 11.5x50R Bavarian Werder - I believe the first solid case CF cartridge adopted by the military anywhere in the world. Gevelot also produced this later.

Heinrich Utendoerffer pioneered this “light” folded case construction type, later adopted by others ; Gevelot and likely UMC. They all look very similar but I have not heard of US production of this case type but I am happy to see evidence to the contrary.

Late in 1868 Bavaria tested a Berdan rifle chambered for a .45 caliber Berdan 1868 patent cartridge and it seems evident that although they rejected the weapon, they liked the bullet diameter and cartridge case construction. I have no evidence of this, but Utendoerffer probably payed patent royalties to Hiram Berdan for using his case construction.

This is a comparison between Berdan’s 1868 patent and a 11.5 x 50 R Werder M/69 case:

My bullets like yours seems to be in really nice conditions for such old cartridges (In the book “les cartouches pour fusil et mitrailleuses” the bullets looks different) Do you think they are reloaded?

Could the nice condition of the lead bullets be due to grease or wax covering the surface? The enemy of lead is oxidation, protect the surface and it lasts much longer.


gentleman thank you for your replies
i’m not the kind of spezialist who can give answers to upcomming questionesm, sorry …

has anyone a book recomendation for me, i’m interested in learning more about this rounds and rifles …

regards wolfganggo …

Dieter Storz: Deutsche Militärgewehre, Band 1. Verlag Militaria, Wien. (www.militaria.at)

The freshly published book covers the Werder weapons as well as Gewehr 71.
My copy is still on order, but if this is comparable in quality to his book on Gewehr 98, it is absolutely outstanding.
Dieter Storz is the firearms curator at Bayerisches Armeemuseum, Ingolstadt. If anyone is in a position to know about Werder arms, it is him.