What 57mm and Rapid Fire WHAT in 1914 Liege, Belgium?

General Ammunition Discussion
#1

I have been reading up on the early days of WWI, and while most of the things I have found are researchable, I have come across some that I cannot verify, and I am beginning to wonder if it might be attributed to a typo that has been repeated, over and over, for 107 years…

The reference is to what armaments were installed at forts around Liege, Forts de Barchon, Boncelles, Flemalle, Fleron, Loncin and Pontisse, which were built in and around 1888, were reported to each have “(8) 5.7mm Rapid Fire Guns”.

And therein is where my query orignates.

What 5.7mm Cartridge would have been fielded, and what 5.7mm Rapid Fire Gun would have been used to fire them?

#2

5.7cm or 57mm.
Somebody was using his thumbs when typing that text.

#3

That is what I thought at first, but yesterday I found a Science Channel show called, “Mysteries of the Abondoned” [on cable TV] where the expert on [caretaker of?] the property said it was a Rapid Fire 5.7mm gun down in the triangular concrete ditch/killing zone dug around the fort, as well as two large guns that fired 196 pellets each down the length of the ditch…

#4

Remember you are watching a TV show!
And just like the news we all know if they say it on a TV show IT MUST BY TRUE, RIGHT?

#5

Cannister load???

#6

Yes, TV program, but AFTER the things I read in several places, and, again, my wonder is: If it was a typo that has been repeated for 107 years, one would think- hope?- that such a mistake would have been picked up by now.

#7

Jack, how many people do you know who really know what they are talking about when it comes to ammo?

#8

My thought was loose packed shot rather than a canister because of the description. It sounded like the description of a huge double barrel- most of the guns, from 120mm, 150mm and 210mm were mounted in twin turrets, but other than “howitzer” there was no real identifier.

#9

The said round:

57mm_canister_Belgium
57mm_canister_Belgium728×1385 121 KB

Image source: internet

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#10

95% of the people I personally know, do know about ammo, but that is neither here nor there.

As I said to begin with, I have found the same written reference to 5.7mm, and mentioned a possible misprint repeated over 107 years, BUT, IF that is in fact the case, then the question becomes, what 57mm Rapid Fire Gun would have existed between 1888 and 1914, when the German Army attacked these forts from the rear, thereby bypassing their defensive capability?

#11

Which said round?
57mm?
And what Rapid Fire gun would have been in a dual mount used by the Belgian Army by 1914, at the outset of WWI?

#12

This one:
http://svsm.org/gallery/57mm_Mle1888/IMG_8576
And later the Germans used these guns in their A7V tanks and also made ammo for these guns.

#13

My image above does not show?

#14

For 107 years the error was not spotted?
This is no compliment to the “experts” outta there…

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#15

57 x 222 query?

Quote from page 2 of the above shown BOCN thread:

“The Germans captured a great many of the (57mm, edit) Belgian Mfg Nordenfelt guns along with great stores of ammunition. The only three types of shells known to me for this gun are Canister, Base fuzed common and a point fuzed segment shell. The great majority of ammo captured was canister, as these guns were used in forts to sweep the open ground in the event of an infantry breakthrough.”

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#16

Here the diagram:

57mm

#17

Yes, the image shows a cartridge and a projectile, but no mention of size/caliber, length,etc, and viewed from the side as it is, so there is no way to tell anything
.

#18

In my 1st posting I said 57mm and then “the said round”.

#19

http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/annonces-pages-collectionneur/armement-munitions/57mm-nordenfelt-belge-sujet_5720_1.htm

57mm guns at various Belgian fortifications:

Re: Obus de 57mm Nordenfelt belge

Message par TURPINITE » mar. avr. 05, 2011 9:35 pm

Bonjour,

Pour ce qui est de l’utilisation en fortification, voilà une liste non exhaustive :

Place de Namur

Marchovelette - 3 en tourelle et 6 en flanquement;
Andoy - 4 en tourelle et 8 en flanquement;
Cognelée - 4 en tourelle et 8 en flanquement;
Dave - 3 en tourelle et 6 en flanquement;
Emines - 3 en tourelle et 6 en flanquement;
Maizeret - 3 en tourelle et 6 en flanquement;
Malonne - 3 en tourelle et 6 en flanquement;
St Héribert - 4 en tourelle et 8 en flanquement;
Suarlée - 4 en tourelle et 8 en flanquement;
Wépion - 4 en tourelle et 8 en flanquement.

Place de Liège

Fort de Barchon - 4 en tourelle et 8 en flanquement;
Fort de Boncelles - 4 en tourelle et 8 en flanquement;
Fort de Chaudfontaine - 3 en tourelle et 8 en flanquement;
Fort d’Embourg - 3 en tourelle et 6 en flanquement;
Fort d’Evegnée - 3 en tourelle et 6 pour le flanquement;
Fort de Flémalle - 4 en tourelle 8 en flanquement;
Fort de Fléron - 4 en tourelle et 8 en flanquement;
Fort de Hollogne - 3 en tourelle et 6 en flanquement;
Fort de Lantin - 3 en tourelle et 6 en flanquement;
Fort de Liers - 3 en tourelle et 6 en flanquement;
Fort de Loncin - 4 en tourelle et 8 en flanquement;
Fort de Pontisse - 4 en tourelle et 8 en flanquement;
Fort de la Rochette - 3 en tourelle et 8 en flanquement;

Fort de Huy - 10 en casemate.

Place d’Anvers

Fort de Bornem - 6 en tourelle et 2 en flanquement;
Fort de Breendonck - 2 en tourelle et 14 en flanquement;
Fort de Broechem - 2 en tourelle et 14 en flanquement;
Fort de Cappellen - 4 en tourelle;
Fortin de Spoorwegfortje - 2 en tourelle et 2 en flanquement;
Fort d’Ertbrand - 2 en tourelle et 14 en flanquement;
Fort Midzele - 4 en tourelle;
Fort de Haasdonck - 2 en tourelle et 14 en flanquement;
Fort de Kessel - 4 en tourelle et 4 en flanquement;
Fort de Lier - 4 en tourelle;
Fort de Liezele - 2 en tourelle et 14 en flanquement;
Fort de Gravenwesel - 4 en tourelle;
Fort de Schoten - 5 en tourelle et 10 en flanquement;
Fort de Stabroek - 4 en tourelle;
Fort de Walem - 4 en tourelle;
Fort de Willebroek - 2 en tourelle et 14 en flanquement;

Cordialement
Florian

#20

Ah, so I am supposed to know that your post that read…

… was the one you referenced with the picture of the shell/projectile, without referencing that they went together.
Gee, my bad.