What do I have here?-7.65x54mm Mauser


#1

I think it’s 7.65x53 but the headstamp confuses me.

Second from the left.



#2

The 7.65 Mauser was the standard infantry rifle cartridge of the Belgian Army at the time. In the U.S., it is better known as the “Argentine Mauser cartridge,” but it is actually A Belgian round. The Germans invaded Belgium around May of 1940. I can’t say precisely when your cartridge was made, but it could have been made before the invasion for the Belgian Army. It also could have been made after the occupation by Germany, as German interests actually owned the controlling interest of FN even before the WAR began, and production there was not interrupted for long by the invasion. The code “ch” was not used by FN on ammunition until 1941, I think. The Germans used plenty of captured weapons, and high-quality FN rifles in 7.65 would not have been completely disregarded, so it is likely that the Germans continued manufacture of it during their “stay” in Belgium, at least until they had the supply they wanted or needed. I don’t collect this round, so I don’t know what war-time dates are found on FN rounds. Someone who does could tell us if they continued production throughout the entire occuplation of Belgium.

So, the headstamp is proper - no mystery there.


#3

Is that a 7.92x57 SmK I spy?


#4

The latest known 7.65 x 54 Mauser headstamps by FN before the German occupation were F N 40, F N B 40, 1 FN P 40 and F PT N 40.

I have never seen any evidence of this caliber made during the war but it could be possible. There is a very rare box made by DWM Werk Lüttich in 1943 which is labeled “15 scharfe Patronen Ss. (Belgisches Polizeigewehr) DWM Kal. 7,65 DWM ohne Ladestreifen” but its contents are unknown.

First production resumed after the war and was headstamped F N 47, FN S 47 and FN 47 SS (this last one made by Norma).


#5

As far I know FN/DWM made pistol ammunition like 9mm Kurz, 7,63 Mauser, 7,65 Browning, 9mm Para and so on.
They also handled export ammo orders in 1941 for the Sweden Mauser. Made from Dutch components, 6.5 Manlicher ammunition.
Also Packed/repacked 7,65x54 Mauser rounds in old boxes. See example. One of them is Polish origin.

My question is can I make a difference between Belgium loading and occupied German loading. The Germans used always a primer crimp.


Rgds
Dutch


#6

Tau,
an SmK is identifed by a red primer annulus, not visible in the photograph. .
The black tip you seem to refer to means “tracer” (normal tracer 10 mm, dark tracer Glimmspur 5 mm black tip).

P.S.: Actually a German 7.9 mm tracer is at the same time most probably an SmK, unless it is some special round like lS L’Spur. But I thought it might be prudent to point out the black tip as frequent source of confusion.


#7

Fede: Is the cartridge which opened this thread a Belgian military loading or a commercial round for a foreign military contract? I was under the impression that the standard Belgian rifle ball cartridge at this time was still the round-nosed bullet of about 220 gr. weight. Jack


#8

Dutch, my example of the F N 40 round with primer crimps was given to me as “wartime manufacture” which I understand as DWM Lüttich manufacture. I have never seen a box full of these rounds and I believe it could be the DWM box mentioned before. None of the original FN 1940 packets I have seen contained rounds with these crimps, including those labelled for rifles, carbines, machine rifles or machine guns.

Jack, although Belgium adopted the spitzer bullet loading in 1930 (Mod. 30) both loadings were in concurrent production until 1940. As an opposite example, when Argentina adopted a new rifle and a new spitzer bullet loading in 1909, most of the earlier armament in service was modified for the new ammunition and there was no need to continue with two different loadings. This decision was more expensive but unified the ammunition supply.


#9

Fede: Thanks for the information on the 7.65 m/m Mauser in Belgian military service. Jack


#10

Thanks Fede, we have the same opinion.

Rgds
Dutch