What do I have Here?


#1

Not sure what this is? Cartridge is brass cased and unfinished as no headstamp or flash hole. It is shown in the photo below between a .41 LDA and a .41 Magnum.

The cartridge has a copper jacket, non-magnetic bullet.
Case Dimensions:
Case length 1.12"
Rim dia .447"
Head dia .410"
Mouth dia .407"
Rim thickness .056"

A couple other photos (sorry for poor quality):

Base of cartridge

Cartridge by itself

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks


#2

Just a suggestion, but it could be a dummy for one of the many types of Japanese made replica firearms.

These were supplied with “cartridges” that were slightly different in dimensions to the real thing to prevent real ammunition being chambered.

These dummies are usually turned from solid brass, but that doesn’t mean all of them were.


#3

Falcon,

Not a bad theory. What replica revolvers were made? Do you know of a reference site to check this?


#4

I had a look but I can’t find a specific reference site on them.

I would think many different types were made by various companies.


#5

Did some research on the replicas. This is not a plug-fire cartridge. The bullet in the case is real bullet, not drilled or hollow but a FMJ bullet.


#6

What is bullet diameter ?

Originally thought it was a Herter’s 401, but the dimensions are way off.


#7

Scott,

I will measure and post bullet dia when I get home this evening.

Pat


#8

Pat,

The last photo, the dark area and lack of any tell tale groove above the rim looks like the result of some heavy swaging.
The sharp edge of the upper rim and the case body look lathe turned.

Since I have you measuring what is the dia. of the primer pocket ?

I have seen some wildcat draw sets where the maker had swaged the head of the parent case so much that the primer pocket’s flash hole closes up. This naturally shrinks the size of the pocket & it would need to be re sized,either by swaging or lathe boring.

I’m begining to think you have someone’s experiment that either went wrong or is very far from complete.


#9

Pat,

While you show the item in question next to an out-side lubricated .41, the dimensions given are pretty close to the later, inside lubricated .41 Long Colt (if I’m not mistaken). If needed, I would be happy to document those dimensions from an example when I have the chance. It does have the appearance of an unfinished conversion or fabrication without the flash hole and all.

Dave


#10

Dave,

Yes, if you would post the dimensions I would appreciate it.

Scott, I have added measuring the primer pocket to list for this evening.

I have suspected at times that it might be a wildcat but the unfinished nature of the case (no flashole and no headstamp) seemed to indicate an experimental. I am hoping the collective braintrust can provide some insight.

Thanks

Pat


#11

Pat,

Example is headstamped “REM-UMC 41 LONG” and is likely a late issue (cataloged at least to mid-60’s) .

Case Length- 1.122"
Rim Dia.- .435"
Head Dia.- .407"
Dia. ACM- .406"
Rim Thickness- .052"

The lead projectile is .379" dia. at first point past case mouth.

Your measurements were:
Case length 1.12"
Rim dia .447"
Head dia .410"
Mouth dia .407"
Rim thickness .056"

Dave


#12

DaveE,

Thanks. That adds another data point.

I measured the bullet diameter at .399"

The primer pocket at approximately .20"

I wondered about swaging but still from what to what. Its still a mystery.

Pat