What is this 32 looking caliber?


#1

I’d say this is some kind of war time 32?

Steel cased - magnet sticks

skinny, taller than the 32 acp shown and almost the height of a 9mm luger


#2

This is a French 7.65x20 Long:


#3

thank you very much


#4

Weimar - just to fill in a little on the Wikipedia explanation, which when it says “the
cartridge was developed FOR the United States,” it kind of implies, perhaps not
meaningfully, that the American version wad developed in France. The opposite
is true. The original cartridge was called the .30 Pedersen Automatic Pistol round.
It was actually made for a semi-automatic conversion of the M1903 Springfield
rifle, but for security reasons, it was deemed that referring to it as a pistol round
would not generate much interest and scrutiny, and therefore, from a security
standpoint, was better. It was developed by Remington Arms and Frankford
Arsenal. The original Pedersen round had a shorter bullet and cartridge OAL.
The 7.65 French Long was based on a longer bullet version of the Pedersen
cartridge made in 1919. Although no French weapon for the 7.65 mm French
Long cartridge was adopted before 1935 as a standard or substitute-standard
pistol or SMG, the French began making the cartridge for tests and trials, possibly as early
as 1925. The first rounds were unheadstamped, with a copper primer, a very dark blue,
or perhaps black, primer and neck seal, and a CN bullet of a more rounded ogive, and
seat to a shorter cartridge OAL than the next variation, with a brass primer, CN bullet
more pointed that later serial production, and no colored seals, also unheadstamped.
An example of an early headstamp would be “SFM 1927”. Since this has a copper
primer with dark blue PA, it is possible that I have the time factor of the two unheadstamped
cartridges reversed. It is the shape of the bullet that leaves me undecided which came
first.

Other than commercial, modern rounds mostly from the USA, it seems that the French were
the only country that serially produced this caliber from the mid-1930s until after the war in
French Indo-China, although the weapons in this caliber were officially replaced by 9 mm
pistols Model 1950 and SMGs Model 1949. The one exception were some unheadstamped
rounds, absolutely French in appearance, that were actually made in Czechoslovakia for use
by the Viet Minh in captured French weapons. Later, some of this ammo was likely used by
the Viet Cong, as well.

I hope this is of some help and interest for you.

John Moss


#5

Ok, so steel cased made after the war by the French?

Not trying to be dense, but I think I am more confused. The 32 Long came from the Pederson round that they were vying for the M1 Carbine?


#6

Forget about the M1 Carbine. Let me re-word what John Moss wrote:
The Pedersen device (after John Douglas Pedersen) of WW1 could be inserted into a M1903 (Springfield) rifle(!) and turn it into a weapon that could fire the .30 Pedersen round semi-automatically. It never saw action.
The French later developed their own 7.65 mm long based on this American round.
The French (basically) adopted a pistol and a submachine gun firing this 7.65 mm long round shortly before WW2.

Your cartridge in the photo has a laquered steel case which shows it was made during German occupation of France, confirmed by the year 1943 in the headstamp.


#7

Pederson device cartridges: http://www.oldammo.com/july07.htm (bottom of the page)

French 7.65x20mm Long: http://www.armeetpassion.com/765%20long.htm


#8

Great, interesting

A friend gave me a lot of assorted ammo, vast majority is just normal stuff, but will look for odd things to share.


#9

Brian,

That’s a nice presentation on the French-language site. I don’t read French
hardly at all, and a 1931 date in the first paragraph puzzles me. Also, it says
that France (SFM) commenced production of the cartridge in 1927. That is not
accurate. I have a dummy round headstamped SFM 1926, and I believe that
the two variations of unheadstamped round I have seen, and have in my own
collection, probably date from 1925. Oddly, although the French site indicates
production began in 1927, it shows in the Synonyms the designation “7.65mm
French 1925,” which would tend to confirm my own belief about when it started.
I do agree that a very short-run serial production took place in 1927, and perhaps
the earlier rounds would be considered as prototypes for test and trials. Still,
they were produced.

Still, it is a nice overview of the cartridge.

Peelen - thanks for clarifying my answer. Perhaps I provided too much information.
I thought my answer was fairly clear, but certainly, yours is a lot more concise and
cuts right to the basics. My wife always said that my problem in writing was that “I
used too many words.” :-) Your answer was right on, as usual.

John M.


#10

John,

Thanks for correcting some of the information found in French website. I, too noticed the odd first paragraph after using an online translator, see below:

“It’s in 1927 that the French company of ammunition started to produce cartridges of 7.65 mm Long, which did not prevent the purchase of ammunition in the USA until 1931.”

So something must have gotten mixed up in original writing or some the information was incorrect.

Brian


#11

BD - yes, there is something wrong there. I know of no American
made 7.65 mm French Long ammunition from that period (I put a time
factor on it because I have several examples of 7.65 French Long of
relatively modern American manufacture, using cases converted from
other calibers, such as Bertram’s .32 Auto “Basic Case.” Remington
and Franford Arsenal were done with that caliber, as much as I know,
by 1920 or so. I don’t know why the French would need that caliber
in 1931 - too early for the 1935A and 1935S pistols, and for the Model
1938 French SMG. There were some French Trials of 1930, and it is
not impossible, I suppose, that the rounds made in 1926 and 1927 were
used in those trials, but I would think the Pedersen rounds, or any other American
production of cartridges for those trials, could be ruled out since to my knowledge,
nothing is known of any such cartridges. There was a pistol trial scheduled for
France in the mid-1920s, but I can’t find much on that. It was my impression that
FN built a small, slim version of what was to become the Model GP (1935) but
a quick search of my files found nothing on that pistol. However, I found that
I have information that a 1935 version in 7.65 Long was made
although I don’t know for sure that is correct. It appears the whole question of this
cartridge could use a lot more in-depth research, but in the near future, it is not
a project I can take on.


#12

John: There was an article in the American Rifleman in the mid (I think) 1950s on an FN Browning-type experimental pistol of the 1920s or thereabouts. I’m thinking it was chambered for the French cartridge but am not certain. Anyone with a backfile of the mag could turn it up. Jack


#13

JPeelen, they also made them with a German occupation “oyj” code,


#14

Never saw them, thank you.