When during WWII did Geco take over SFM?


#1

During WWII Geco took over management of SFM. Does anyone know when his takeover occured? SFM was headquartered in Paris, so it could have occurred at the beginning of the war, Iike FN and S&B. On the other hand, SFM may have moved to Vichy France and was only taken over after September 1944 when Vichy France ceased to exist.

I only know of one headstamp that resulted after the Geco takeover and that is GSF on 6.35mm Browning. which probably dates from the second half of 1943. This would imply Geco takeover sometime between mid-1940 and mid-1943. Does anyone have an actual date???

Are there any other cartridges made by SFM under Geco control and if so, please post headstamps and box labels. I am particularly interested in any other GSF headstamps.

All help appreciated.

Cheers,
Lew


#2

Lew: Germany occupied Vichy France in November, 1942, so that should be a place to begin looking. Jack


#3

Thanks Jack. The Vichy government continued until late 1944 in some documentation. I am not surprised that occupation started well before that.

Lew


#4

I don’t think SFM moved.
And the company was under German authorities as soon as Paris was occupied (14th of june 1940)

What is funny is the fact there is no trace (except the 6.35 ctge) of ammunition manufactured for the German.

Perhaps they made only parts for military items and no ammo (except the 6.35 brg one)

The GSF hstp is dated from 1941

jp


#5

JP,

Where does the date of 1941 come from? Neither the boxes and ammunition are dated. Is there a catalog or order document that provides the 1941 date? Inside the end flap on two of these boxes are Geco date codes from 1943 (as far as we know). Similar Geco made boxes have these date codes and the cases in them are dated 1943. Perhaps there are earlier date GFS boxes that I have not documented. The code is two letters, the first is the year and the second is the month.
V=1941
W=1942
X=1943.

The two boxes I have seen have different month codes from 1943 (XH and XR)

Cheers,
Lew


#6

hello Lew

  1. The info is coming from the listing of the SFM drawings
    the number is P756 from 1941.
    The title of the drawing is : German 6.35 case

Years ago I didn’t take a picture of this drawing because it was not a shotshell

  1. Someone in France has surely the dated drawing of the hstp which is part of the headstamp book of SFM

  2. There was an article about this ctge a long time ago in the AFERHM journal (surely written by Philippe R.)
    But I don’t remember when.

JP
PS: You didn’t reply to my last email


#7

Société Francaise des Munitions, became the German code “pmq”
during WW2.


#8

Hanseatisches Kettenwerk, Hamburg (Hak) in a 1944 report said that Hak engineers directed the production of 7 military ammunition types in 6 French factories (no more details). Geco engineers at SFM would not be something out of the ordinary – from a German point of view.

Hak was founded in 1935 as part of German rearmament, originally under the direction of Pötz & Sand.


#9

Hello !
Could I see pictures of the box containing the GSP 25 ACP ctges ??
Thanks
JP


#10

JPeelen, you are right.

Drawing of a 8mm Lebel from 1944 made by HAK.


#11
  1. here is a list of the drawings about the ctge interesting you:

P 756 1941 German 6.35 case
P 784 30/12/1940 6.35 case of german manufacturing (die)
P 783 02/01/1941 6.35 case of german manufacturing (Matrix)
P 785 17/03/1941 6.35 bullet of german manufacturing (Matrix for jacket)
P 786 18/03/1941 6.35 bullet of german manufacturing (die for jacket)
P 773 28/11/1941 4.5 Genschow primer (primer)
P 771 30/12/1941 Cal. 6,35 Genschow (stamp for case)
P 772 30/12/1941 Cal. 6,35 Genschow (stamp for bullet jacket)
P 917 29/04/1943 6,35 automatic pistol made by Genschow (case)
P 918 29/04/1943 6,35 automatic pistol made by Genschow (stamp for case)

  1. for Dutch :
    what are the items manufactured with the code “pmq” ?

thanks
jp


#12

Great JP,

Does anyone know where I would look for copies of these drawings??

Cheers,
Lew


#13

Lew,
Here are some info from my friend

  1. He has two samples :
    brass case, tombac bullet, copper primer (with a circle = Sinoxid), hstp : star G.S.F star 6.35
    First one : no primer annulus, no bullet annulus
    Second one: violet primer, violet bullet annulus
    Rim diameter: 7.62 mm for one;
    Rim diameter: 7.65 mm for the other

  2. The cases have the same rim diameter as the SFM and FN ctges (7.62 to 7.65 mm)
    It is not the same diameter as for the RWS ctges (7.53 mm)
    Therefore the case look like the SFM or FN ones

  3. the primer is the same as for the RWS ctges

  4. The color of the annulus (violet) is rarely used by SFM but often used by FN

  5. the bullets (brass) are not the same as for the SFM or RWS ctges (CN)
    But are the same color as the FN bullets (tombac)
    But the FN bullet shape is different.

  6. The stars are the same as for SFM ctges (star with a circle in the middle)

  7. One of these ctges was from a packet with a written Ch sticker on it.
    (Ch was FN during German occupation)

Lol !!

JP


#14

JP unfortunately I don’t know that.
The only information I have is that Société Francaise des Munitions (Gevelot) in Paris became that code.
In the book “Deutsche Fertigungskennzeigchen bis 1945” is written that they made ammunition parts.

Rgds


#15

I edited my last post to make corrections and give more details
jp


#16

Hello Lew,

I have now all the SFM drawings concerning these ctges.
I think you will be disapointed because they were never made by SFM.

  1. The drawing P756 is a copy of a Geco drawing dated from 1/16/41.

SFM received it on the 4/2/41

It looks like a stamped case.
Is it for a 6.35 case ??

I don’t know the meaning of “A.S.S.”

Does anybody has some idea ??

  1. The drawing P772 was received at SFM on the 1/14/42.
    It is a copy of a Geco drawing dated from the 12/30/41 showing a brass cup (Näpchen N°154) to make a 6.35 bullet.

  2. The drawing P771 was received at SFM on the 1/14/42.
    It is a copy of a Geco drawing dated from the 12/30/41 showing a brass cup (Näpchen N°101)to make a 6.35 case

  3. the drawing P917 received at sfm on the 4/22/43 shows a steel case made by Geco with the hstp "Geco (at 12oc) and 6.35 (at 6oc)"
    The case is iron phosphated.

  4. The drawing P918 received at SFM on the 4/22/43 shows the steel cup used to make this case.
    Therefore P917 and P918 are not related with your ctge.
    JP


#17

Hi JP,

This is the drawing of the 8 mm case for the Schüler gas/blank pistol from 1933. “A.S.S.” stand for “August Schüler Suhl”.

Regards,

Fede


#18

thanks Fede
jp


#19

JP, I guess that was not surprising because they were all “P” coded documents. PR said he had seen a SFM drawing of the GSF cartridge. Unfortunately I have been unable to contact him.

Thanks for chasing these down. Much appreciated.

Cheers,
Lew


#20

Don’t worry if this drawing exists we will find it.
I am working right now on a new drawings we found
JP