Winchester? 9x19mm


#1

Below are two cartridges that have been in my collection for some years. I suspect they are post-WWI or post-WWII loads made from something else for use in somebodies captured Luger or P-38. The question is what do you think they were made out of?
The bullet on the right looks like it was once tinned. It also looks like it was polished at one time which accounts for the rounding of the rim.

Thoughts???


Cheers,
Lew


#2

Lew, The cases look to be crudely turned down and I would guess that they started life as either .38 ACP or .38 Super. The bullets also look like either of those two. If the bullets are around 130gr, it would almost prove them out, but with the cases, even though those two were the easiest ones to convert, there still appears to be a lot of work on the rim and grove. That could mean they started as .38 Spl. or come to think of it, .38 S&W having seen them with blank bases like that. Cheers, Bruce.


#3

I’d agree with the foregoing. Bullets appear to have a profile very similar to .38 Super or ,38 ACP. Cases are so crude (especially around the extraction groove) that I would expect them to have been made from some rimmed round (possibly by filing), with the .38 S&W being a likely starting candidate, but also maybe some other rimmed .38. Question would be what kind of case would have a blank head? I remember something written by George Nonte regarding his adventures in making thousands of 9mm cases from .38 Special brass after WWII to sell in order to make beer money.


#4

These could also have been converted from .351 Winchester Self-Loading cartridges. Bullet and primer looks very similar to WRACo examples.


#5

There seems to be turning marks on the base so maybe there was a headstamp that has been removed deliberately or in order to thin the rim down.


#6

The cases look like they could have been put in a lathe and been turned by holding a file against them while the lathe was running.


#7

Thanks for all the interesting ideas. It would really be nice to pin down what these were made from. Both came from the same collection so it could have been an individual making them for his own use.

The two loads weigh 221gr and 217gr respectively with the polished round being the lightest. In a normal 9mmP case this would imply a 155gr bullet. The diameter of the case just above the end of the taper ahead of the groove is 9.47mm and 9.55mm with the polished round being the smaller diameter. The case diameter of a 38 Special is 9,55mm at this same point. The CM diameter on the two 9mm just below the bevel to the bullet is 9.75mm on both while a 38Spl is 9.51mm at this point. Both cases swell a bit toward the CM indicating that the bullet swelled the case a bit when it was seated. The rim thickness is very different on the two rounds as you can see from the photo. The polished round has a thickness of 1.47mm and the other 1.22mm. The rim thickness on a 38Spl is about 1.5mm.

Does anyone else have one of these cartridges?

Dennis, I have a whole selection of the post-WWII 9x19mm made from 38 Special cases. Many were made by the Wagner Gun Room in Ohio which must have had a big operation since I have a full box of their rounds and have seen other boxes. These rounds all seem to have lead bullets, either RN or Truncated.

More ideas???

Thanks,
Lew