Winchester Q4301 FMJE PLTD 9mm


#1

Here’s an interesting type of 9mm from Winchester. It’s a 124gr tin plated steel jacket with a brass disc covering the base. The FMJE stands for “full metal jacket encapsulated” I assume, and the PLTD must mean “plated” as in tin-plated over the steel jacket. I don’t know why they needed the brass disc on the base of the bullet and why they didn’t just have the steel jacket go all the way around the base. Lew told me that this is probably a contract export for possible European police use. It has a typical lead core, but uses lead-free primers (they have the bumpy-primer look to them).


#2

DK - there is a whole series of these headstamps, and most were made for the German
Police. I don’t know all the codes, but the “B” (if that is a “B” I am reading on the headstamp)
probably identifies which state it went to. Any guess on my part as to what state it represents would be nothing
more than conjecture.


#3

I saw these bullets (just the bullets) being manufactured at Winchester’s East Alton plant some years ago, but I don’t know who they were intended for for. Purpose was to limit airborne lead exposure from the exposed base on indoor ranges, the same reason for using the lead-free primers. Strange to me that if they are destined for Germany, why wouldn’t there be some German printing on the box?


#4

I just found the construction strange since I have seen many other copper and steel jacketed bullets with fully enclosed bases in which the jacket is complete and extends all the way around. The brass disc seems like a costly extra step, unless it yields some ballistic advantage?


#5

Dennis - only the German Police and/or Winchester could answer that questions with certainty.
One answer would be, with the miimal amount of information on the box, and English being a
universal language that probably half of the entire German population reads, wrties and speaks
well, why bother?


#6

I have some Fiocchi 123gr JHPs that have a similar base at the disc (the bullet is a poor-performing clone of the Winchester SXT)…I was told that it was cheaper and easier to use a separate disc; that way lots of bullets could easily become ‘green’ after the fact.

Absent a plating/jacketing setup like that used for the Gold Dot bullet, I can see how it’d be simpler touse standard setups/production lines for normally jacketed bullets then add the base disc later in the production or delete it for products where the “greenness” was unneeded.

I can’t envision any terminal advantage to the base-disc setup, and certainly not on a FMJ or totally plated bullet.


#7

Matt, that disc prevents the lead from getting out of the jacket. Sowith it is considered to be somewhet more environmental friendly. To my knowledge today a must for German indoor shooting ranges of the police and the military.

John, despite so many Germans read/speak English the box would be marked in German if it would have been for official use of police or military.
Then again it might be a lot for evaluation or one of many other possible exceptions.


#8

EOD - could be. My impression is that I have seen boxes for some of the other code letters, in German
collections, and they were in English, but I could be wrong. My German file on 9mm is so big, I can’t take the time
right now to search it out. One of these days, I am going to have to split it into Pre-1945 Germany, West Germany,
East Germany, and now reunified German Federal Republic.

Maybe one of the 9mm collector-members in Europe like Rolf Foerster, or Morten Stoen, or someone has some of these boxes and could post pictures of them. I don’t have any of them in my own collection. There is simply no question that the headstamp style pictured is that of the numerous variations supplied to Germany, as Lew Curtis said. Lew is traveling now, but he probably has some boxes and likely knows how to interpret the headstamps. They show the basic Police Unit the rounds were supplied to, or that is my understanding. I have a lot of the cartridges, but again, no single box, so I probably should have kept my big mouth shut on that subject.


#9

I just ran across this old thread when searching for something else…

At http://www.patroner.no/img2/Win_NT_Germany.pdf there is a list of headstamps on these series of cartridges, allegedly test runs for German police. The list and the information in it is based on cartridges in my own collection and information from George Kass, Peter Petrusic and others. Any comments would be appreciated.

morten


#10

DKConfiguration,

I wonder how it could be possible on existing machinery to make a FMJ bullet that is closed on all sides.


#11

Morten, thanks for the list and your research.

I doubt these were test lots. If they had been they would have carried EO (experimental order numbers) instead of Q numbers that seem to always represent production orders or sale of production ammo. perhaps this is production to a standard production specification. Morten’s list implies manufacture over a number of years. My understanding is that this was non-toxic, low cost training ammunition of various German police units. The only boxes I have seen are the ones illustrated. I suspect this was a rejected lot that was sold on by Winchester on the US market. I have seen both French and Taiwanese police contract ammo that was reject or over production and sold on the US markets in US marked boxes. The fact is, I have no first hand info on the boxes that this ammo was in when delivered to the German police. I have seen these style boxes with EO numbers that came directly out of various German police facilities that were test projects for these agencies in these countries.

Of course I can be very wrong. This is what I’ve been told over time but have no documentation.

Cheers,
Lew