Winchester


#1

Which model is this Winchester 12 gauge gun ?
Designed for ctges loaded either with black or smokeless powder.
6 shots, 3.4 kg weight, 70 cm barrel length

Thanks
jp


#2

It appears to be a Spencer shotgun rather than a Winchester.


#3

The shotgun pictured IS a Spencer, and not of Winchester manufacture. It first came out about 1882 and was made until about 1889 with the “Spencer Arms Co.” mark on it. In about 1890, Francis Bannerman Sons, New York, purchased the patents and continued the shotgun under their name until about 1907. Hence, you have a date spread of about 1882 to 1907 if the shotgun is incorrectly identified as to make AND markings in that picture.

Spencer Arms Company, by the way, was in Windsor, Connecticut.

John Moss


#4

John: Incidentally I believe that the photo identified as depicting the Bannerman Spencer factory in Brooklyn is, in actuality, the original Spencer facility in Windsor. I suspect Francis B. was too cheap to have the NY building photographed and just used a previously-made pic of the original Spencer plant. JG


#5

I asked the model because I was doubtfull with this French catalogue.
As you can see on the picture above they call it Winchester Mle 1897 !!

I suppose the denomination of the second one (Colt) is false also ??

jp


#6

J-P: The Winchester Model 97 was a slide action shotgun as well, but had an outside hammer. I own and still shoot three of them. They are one of the few shotguns that spanned the era of black powder right up to the introduction of the 2-3/4" Magnum shotgun shell, and are safe with all, as far as the gun goes. They are, in my opinion, a very dangerous gun to handle in the field, but I don’t hunt with them. The very small hammer which when cocked is very flat against the receiver of the gun, is very hard to safely lower to the half-cock safety (of itself, a very poor safety) without letting it slip. If I were to hunt with a 97, I would carry it in my hand, while stalking birds, with the slide open and a shell on the carrier, and when moving about from field to field, especially over fences, with the bolt closed on an empty chamber.

Well, regardless, the identification of the Colt rifle is correct. Pictured is a Colt Lightning Slide Action rifle, made in calibe3rs .32-20, 38-40 and 44-40, and referred to as the “medium frame model.” It came out in 1884 and was made until 1902. I have a very nice one in 44-40 made specifically for the San Francisco Police Department and serial numbered specifically for them “SFP####.” I am not sure thaqt helps a lot in dating the catalog either, since it is a large time spread - eighteen years. Could even be longer, as 1902 was simply the date of discontinuance of production - it doewn’t mean they were not advertised for sale later than that, until existing stocks were exhausted.


#7

Thanks to every body.
Dating all these old catalogues is very difficult !!

JP


#8

Now I am wondering - the photo of the “Winchester” is obviously not a Winchester but the photo of the “Colt” appears to be a Colt. But both “Winchester” and “Colt” are in quotation marks. Does this mean that they did not have a photo of a real Winchester to show or does it mean that both firearms are “knockoffs” and not the real thing? Wasn’t there a cheaper imitation of the Colt Lightning? Made by Burgess or somebody like that?

Ray


#9

[quote=“Ray Meketa”]Now I am wondering - the photo of the “Winchester” is obviously not a Winchester but the photo of the “Colt” appears to be a Colt. But both “Winchester” and “Colt” are in quotation marks. Does this mean that they did not have a photo of a real Winchester to show or does it mean that both firearms are “knockoffs” and not the real thing? Wasn’t there a cheaper imitation of the Colt Lightning? Made by Burgess or somebody like that?

Ray[/quote]
Hi Rea !
you are perhaps right.
I have no idea !!
jp


#10

Any & all gun and ammo catalogs should be viewed with a eye that there could very well be typos, text errors, pre- or post-marketing photos or drawings (of say headstamps that do not exist), plus other misleading “facts”. A common practice was to take “cuts” (the piece of etched zinc plate used to print with) from one source and modify it to produce another cataolg with the “new” cut.