WTK value: case of german WW2 9mm


#1

I have a case of like new german WW2 9mm ammo. 4160 rounds. head stamp st 6 43 Kam think is is pistol ammo. marked with labels with pistol 08

any info would be great, thanks


#2

Well, figure the 9mm boxed ammo I see goes for anywhere from $5.00 to $15.00 a box, figure out how many boxes total in the case…

It would be sweet to have a full case in a collection…my friend has one. If you decide to break this up to sell, I would be interested in a box or two…


#3

You can not value this like shooter ammo, so it is anyone’s guess as to it’s real value. I’d say that a full, original crate of WWII German 9x19mm ammunition is rare enough that it is worth more than the sum of it’s parts.

Beware that if this ammo is marked “P.08 m.E.”, it has a steel core and is specificly named by the BATFE as armor piercing handgun ammunition. Some states have restrictions on even posessing this type of ammunition.

AKMS


#4

@ AKMS,

The marking m.E. means in English; with iron.

This bullet was made with an iron core to reduce the lead in the bullet.
It don


#5

Dutch - you are of course correct. But then, so is AKMS. Unfortunately, our laws and regulations on arms and ammunition are made by people who know little or nothing about the subjects on which they legislate. So while the premise is wrong, AKMS is correct in his description of how this ammo is view by authority in the US.

Ignorance is not even confined to them. A local range in our area will not allow the use of any ammunition with a bullet that takes a magnet, because of course, it is all “armor-piercing.” That’s what they think, anyway. An explanation of soft iron cores, and mild steel jackets went completely over their heads.


#6

Yes, many of the U.S. laws concerning ammunition make little or no sense.

Many years ago, out of curiosity, I compared the penetrative qualities of .45 ACP ball to 9x19mm “m.E” ball. Using a U.S. “Flack Jacket” from the Vietnam War era, I wanted to see what kind of pistol caliber projectiles it would stop, even knowing that this was not a “bulletproof” vest and that the material inside was ballistic nylon, not “Kevlar”. From a range of about 10 feet/3 meters, the vest stopped the .45 ACP ball projectile completely, although the blunt trauma of the impact might have been lethal! The “m.E.” projectile, from the same range, went completely through both the front and back of the vest. My next test was to fold and layer the vest panels so that the target was the thickness of three complete vests. The “m.E.” went through ALL SIX panels and ended up about 8" into the dirt backstop! The recovered projectile was in good enough condition to be re-used! I can see why the BATFE has specificly named WWII German and post-war Czech 9mm ammunition with steel cores as armor piercing ammunition!

AKMS


#7

AKMS - but in your tests, you did not penetrate “armor” in the sense of a bullet proof vest. Your test would have been more valid had you used a German lead core ball round and perhaps a European ball round with GM jacket, not GMCS, for control purposes. The very qualities that make the .45 a good man-stopper (hate that term - it is all a crap shoot - but don’t know what other descriptive term to use) work against it for penetrating materials like ballistic nylon or Kevlar. The low velocity and relatively blunt, large diameter bullet that do so well in crushing tissue, do not do so well against ballistic nylon, even though it is only meant to stop shrapnel, not bullets.

The fact is, many pistol rounds not designated as AP or MP by their manufacturers will defeat even Kevlar vests of certain threat-levels, even loaded with bullets that have no steel in them at all. Just depends on how heavy a vest you want to wear.

The fact is, Dutch was correct in saying that the m.E. bullet was to save a stratigic material, lead, and not desgined as any kind of armor-piercing round.

Just my opinion, but I think most of these ammo laws are silly, doing little or nothing to protect police officers and turning many honest citizens into “criminals.” Further, all the publicity generated over this issue in the press accomplished nothing but to see more of our rights taken away, and to notify criminals that police wear vests (not widely known before all the Pistol “cop-killer” bullet nonsense started to be spread).
Even more infuriating is the fact that charges relating to possession of guns and certain types of ammunition are often the first things plea-bargained away, leaving the unsuspecting decent citizen who happened to have an “offending” item, the only one charged with this “crime.”

Well, just beating my gums, It is not going to change. All bullets can penetrate the skin of a Police Officer or anyone else, so one of these days, they will all be illegal to possess.


#8

Hi
next time try to shoot a SE 9 para.
ME is nothing compare to SE about penetration!
JP


#9

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Dutch - you are of course correct. But then, so is AKMS. Unfortunately, our laws and regulations on arms and ammunition are made by people who know little or nothing about the subjects on which they legislate. So while the premise is wrong, AKMS is correct in his description of how this ammo is view by authority in the US.

Ignorance is not even confined to them. A local range in our area will not allow the use of any ammunition with a bullet that takes a magnet, because of course, it is all “armor-piercing.” That’s what they think, anyway. An explanation of soft iron cores, and mild steel jackets went completely over their heads.[/quote]

John,

The Czech steel cored 9mm rounds were banned by most ranges in the UK long before the general ban on all breechloading pistols came into force. The clubs banned their use due to damage to the stop butts, especially those with an inclined steel plate in them. These plates had stood up to many thousands of lead and lead cored rounds but were rapidly pock marked by the Czech bullets.

gravelbelly


#10

Yes, steel-core Czech ammo is quite penetrative, and is also not recommended for use on ranges that use anything other than mother earth or an extreme-range dead-zone to let the bullet run its course. However, the range I was talking about here bans any magnetic bullet! They make no effort to find through their own testing, or seek advice from those that know (in fact they ignore any advice), which rounds commonly available are harmful to the range and which aren’t. the vast majority, having lead cores and only a mild steel jacket, are not. This is the type of ignorance that causes more and more ammunition to be banned outright, and of course, the same thing happens with guns with certain features. All of these loaws have one major purpose - to further the cause of total civilian disarmament, and unfortunately, that cause is often furthered from among our own ranks, as in the case of the range to which I am referring.

In the end, the UN Council for Disarmment, or whatever they call themselves, will have their way, I am sure. I am glad I am old and probably will not be here to see the completion of their plans.

Well, enough said, I think. Off of the subject of the thread, but then, it is becoming increasingly difficult to divorce the realities of totalitarian laws from any discussion of arms and ammunition ownership.


#11

[quote=“jean-pierre”]Hi
next time try to shoot a SE 9 para.
ME is nothing compare to SE about penetration!
JP[/quote]

You don’t shoot with collector cartridges.


#12

[quote=“Dutch”]
You don’t shoot with collector cartridges.[/quote]

Why ?
SE bullet is more collectable than ME bullet ?
Anyway if you have a P08 or a P38, it is better to use old german ammo (except SE because of the barrel life) for the life or your gun than modern ammo, don’t you think?
JP


#13

No, I shoot with my 08 Lapua 115 grains bullet with a Vo from 320 m/s

Works great.


#14

[quote=“Dutch”]No, I shoot with my 08 Lapua 115 grains bullet with a Vo from 320 m/s

Works great.[/quote]

If you are talking about some ammo you buy at high price, OK
The common ones we have overhere are hoter (IMI, S&B, and so on)

If you reload , OK also,.
But it is time consumming and less and less interesting to reload ctges (in France), the price is as much expansive as manufactured S&B ctges.

If you use cheaper ammo like the ones you can find coming from the war (Canadian, Italian, English and US) or the French ctges you will destroy quickly your P08 or P38.

I have seen a lot of P08 guns with the knee broken (or the firing pin broken for the first WWI models). And even P38 is not a strong gun.

Shooting German ammo is not very expansive regarding the price of the parts (and the paperwork) if you break your gun.
JP


#15

In no way did I intend for this test to be “scientific”. “Body armor” and steel armor plate are two very different things and I know that the m.E round is not a true “AP” cartridge. I was just curious one day and used what was on hand at the time. The other 9x19mm round I had that day was a Winchester 115 gr. “Silvertip” hollow point. I do not recall the exact penetration from this load, but it was quite a bit less than the m.E. round. The end result was a Silvertip that was quite deformed in the end and a m.E. that was not deformed at all. The iron core gave the projectile rigidity and no energy was lost in the deformation of the projectile as it went through the vest layers. The .380 ACP copper jacketed FMJ and “silvertip” hollow point with lead cores used that day were also rather flattened after almost getting through the vest. The .45 ACP ball projectile was undamaged but the .45 ACP “Silvertip” was flattened pretty good.

Not trying to prove anything here, just sharing an anectdote, showing that not only did the m.E. design save on strategic material, but it also gave it some extra penetrating power as an added benefit.

AKMS


#16

About 20 years ago I was fortunate enough to watch some 9mm P tests for penetration at Aberdeen Proving Ground. They were shooting some standard NATO ball round (Canadian, Belgian, German and French) as well as US XM882 and Swiss military ball. They were also shooting various types of 9mm P KTW and the American Ballistics with the all steel bullet. All were fired at a quarter inch thick plate of cold-roll steel (I do not know the spec). The firing was done with a test barrel fixture measuring both chamber pressure and velocity just beyond the muzzle.

As expected the ball rounds left only lead splatter on the steel plate. The KTW put a significant dent in the plate, and the pointed steel bullet on the ABC round stuck in the plate with the tip very slightly through the back of the plate. The ABC load was VERY hot and really questionable for pistols.

I was invited because I brought some German WW II ammo, both SE and mE from a number of manufacturers, including kam and ak. The first suprise it that the 5 shot groups of German ammo had a smaller standard deviation in chamber pressure and muzzle velocity than any of the other ammo except the Swiss which was slightly better. The FN ammo had basically the same consistency as the German. The Canadian ammo (which was a NATO Standard lot had the greatest standard deviation, and the other ammunition was all significantly less consistent than the 40+ year old German ammo produced in occupied factories!!!

The German SE bullets shattered on the steel plate, but left a sizable dent. The mE ammunition left a very considerable dent and cracked the plate through but did not penetrate. The mE ammunition clearly did more damage to the steel plate and came closer to penetrating than any of the other’s mentioned above.

Aberdeen also tested a bullet they were working on at the time and it cleanly penetrated the plate and the backing and continued down range, and had normal chamber pressure and muzzle velocity, but that is another story.

When the ATF classified the mE bullet as an AP pistol bullet they did the right thing, whether it was intentional or by accident.

Cheers, Lew