ww-II german 9 mm gauge


#1

hi Lew,
Do you know a 9 mm gauge with the hstp : " 23814 (12 oc) 9 min (6 oc) ?

It is an all steel ctge.

jp


#2

JP - Could you post a picture of this gauge, just for the record. I have not seen one before, and would like a picture of the gauge in profile and the headstamp for my files. Thank you.


#3

I don’t have the ctge.
This is one of the drawings I’ve seen coming from Mauser, Polte and Dwm

jp


#4

JP - the drawing by itself is not too helpful, at lwast as it appears on my screen. Very hard to read or even see the drawn part. However, I am glad to see the title of the drawing includes the terminology “Stahlpatrone.” I was once criticized for my use of that term to describe these metal gauges, even though I have a copy of the price list for tools that includes the “cartridge gauges,” and which describes them as “Stahlpatronen.”


#5

[quote=“JohnMoss”]JP - the drawing by itself is not too helpful, at lwast as it appears on my screen. Very hard to read or even see the drawn part.

[color=#0000FF]I am sure somebody knows a good software to restaure a good drawing and post it.
I used to have one but not anymore because it was at my work.
If somebody knows one i am interested.
.[/color]

However, I am glad to see the title of the drawing includes the terminology “Stahlpatrone.” I was once criticized for my use of that term to describe these metal gauges, even though I have a copy of the price list for tools that includes the “cartridge gauges,” and which describes them as “Stahlpatronen.”

[color=#0000FF]lol!!! Don’t worry , many people criticize but in fact they know very little.
The proof : you were right [/color]![/quote]


#6

23814 is also the drawing number, so it was probably used merely for reference on the drawing of the head and never was a genuine headstamp.

John E


#7

[quote=“JJE”]23814 is also the drawing number, so it was probably used merely for reference on the drawing of the head and never was a genuine headstamp.

John E[/quote]

Hello;
I don’t think so.

First I don’t understand what you mean by "used merely for reference on the drawing of the head "
Often on gauges we have a drawing number.

Second it is a perfect European view (what we see at the top is what it is on the bottom)

jp


#8

About these drawing / part numbers: This weekend I found a somewhat larger P08 related tool, which exactly fits the magazine opening in the frame. The handle is marked ‘Pist. 08 Griffstück 29138’. (Pistole 08 Grip piece). Note that the serial number of this part is quite similar to that on the chamber gauge shown here.

There are surviving lists of German Army tools and gauges, unfortunately I don’t have direct access to these.


#9

Jeanpierre: Thanks for the clarification – if the drawing number is indeed sometimes used as a headstamp on gauges then that would seem to be the case here. I was merely wondering if the draftsman may have used the drawing number on his illustration because he didn’t know what headstamp would actually be used.

John E


#10

Usually sets of gauges were kept wooden boxes, they still are in our plants by the way.
This drawing obviously is about a minimum gauge. So it is feasable to expect other gauges to exist, maximum gauge for example. Then it does make sense to have an identifier somewhere on the items to differentiate both from each other. We often use the drawing number for such purposes, but of course there will be other identifiers out there.
Provided the pictured gauge is inserted in the box “bullet” side down, the most logical place for the identifier is on the head. My opinion.

Hans


#11

JP, Thanks for the drawing. I have never seen a drawng of a German P08 gauge from WWII that I have seen. The drawing appears to be dated 1932.

I only have two P38 gauges so have little to compare from my own collection. John Moss wrote an article in the old Cartridge Trader once upon a time and Randy Elzea had a collection which included at least 8 or 10 which is now in the Woodin Laboratory. All of this information indicates that the P08 gauges of this type were numbered 34E20820 or 34E20821 which I believe to be the drawing number with the lower number are marked “G” (I assume for Gehan or go) and the higher number are marked “NG” (apparently for No G0). The drawing numbers are often followed by a lower case letter which probably means a revision to the drawing.

The P08 gauges I have doucmented are dated 1939, 1940 and 1941. There is also one that I am uncertain of the date marked “WH439mm” which may indicate a 1943 date. The drawing number indicates revision “e” which is the latest revision I have seen so the 1943 date may make sense.

The P38 gauges, both mine and the ones I have documented are have drawing numbers 34E20842 and 34E20843, and again the lower number gauges are the ones marked with the “G”. These drawing numbers suffixs indicating drawing revisions. None of the P38 gauges I know of are dated.

Most of these gauges are marked WaA42 but some of the P38 gauges are marked WaA419 and WaA512. The WaA list does not associate these inspector codes with any factories.

None of the German WWII gauges I have documented have markings on the head. I do have early British 9mmP gauges with the drawing number on the head so it has been done.

JP, I have never seen a gauge like the one in your drawing, but I also have never seen or heard of a German P08 gauge from the early 1930s so have no information on where they engraved the drawing number. My feeling is that the drawing accurately depicts the gauge markings from 1932, but that is only one persons opinion.

If anyone has a German P08 gauge from the 20s or 30s, or information on German P08 gauges from before WWII, or any other German 9x19mm Gauges from WWII or earlier (for example an MP40 gauge), please post the information.

This is an interesting research project for the forum, the accumulation of data on German 9x19mm gauges from WWII and earlier. Below is an illustration of one of the P38 gauges in my collection and some blanks that can be used to record other gauge markings. If you have one or more German 9mm Parabellum gauges from WWII or earlier for any weapon, please print and fill out the blanks and post them here or send them to me and I will collect the results, add the images of the gauges I have documented and post them.

Thanks for any help on this project.

Cheers,

Lew


#12

Lew, The “N” on the gauges stands for “Normal” which is a go gauge, and the “G” stands for some form of the word “Gross” (Grosster, or something like that) indicating oversize or “no go” gauge. I simply forget the form of the word now.


#13

[quote=“Lew”]JP, Thanks for the drawing. I have never seen a drawng of a German P08 gauge from WWII that I have seen. The drawing appears to be dated 1932.

Lew

[/quote]

Hello Lew,

Did you read my post on DWM catalogues ???

JP


#14

I just posted the German gauges I have a record of on my website at

http://gigconceptsinc.com/German-Gauges-thru-WW2

Hope this is useful.

Cheers,

Lew


#15

Lew: The fact that most of these gages are marked with the stamp of WaA42 caught my eye even before I read your comments on them. As an ordinary thing German ordnance department inspectors or inspection teams of the second war period were assigned to specific places, usually a town or even a portion of a large city. The makers of many of these gages appear to be rather far removed from one another in some cases (Fritz Werner in Berlin I’m assuming, and Erma in Erfurt) and yet were inspected, it seems, by the same authority. Perhaps it was felt that gages were such demanding articles (from the angle of telling a good one from one not good) that gage inspection wasn’t conducted locally but through a central authority? Jack


#16

Jack,
I have scratched my head on the same topic. Some of the codes moved around during the war but this seems kind of crazy. I agree with your speculation that there was one central inspection activity for gages. I have a batch of 7.9 gauges and will have to test that theory.

There was only one company making P08 pistols early in the war and maybe they were inspected and formally accepted when they got to the pistol factory. I have seen some indication of something similar.

I still wonder if gauges were used on the machine pistols, and if so which ones. Erma was deeply involved with the MP38 and MP40.

Cheers,
Lew


#17

Lew: I checked out the 7.9 m/m gage drawings in the Charles Yust book and they also seemed to be mostly WaA42. Unfortunately the reproduction of these drawings isn’t as good as it might be. Jack


#18

All my 7,9 gages are WaA42 also the 8x33.

Try to make a pic. This is not so easey.

Rgds
Dutch


#19

[quote=“dutch”]All my 7,9 gages are WaA42 also the 8x33.

Rgds
Dutch[/quote]

hello!
is the base plain ?
If yes, are all your german gauges with a plain base ?
thanks
jp


#20

Dutch, I checked a batch of 7.92x57mm gauges I have. The Erma gauges for the MG08 & 08/15 all lack any WaA marking as do most of the other gauges. The old box containen one G98 & K98 gauge by Polte and two gothe gauges, one with the HH over K logo and the other with the F over W logo (marked Heer) and these two both had the WaA 42 marking. None of these including one apparently dated 1937 had markings on the base. A set of bore gagues I have in 7.9 are all marked on the end with the diameter, and most also have an A or G and some have the bent wing eagle.
Another whole area of study. Was surprised to see the Polte gauge. Guess they made it cause they did a lot of rework on their test guns???

Cheers,
Lew