WW1 9mm shell

Dear all, this 9mm pistol shell casing was found on the Italian Dolomite front of WW1. I would be interested in learnig more about this pieceDSCF4215 - grateful if anybody could share his knowledge of the origins of this round. Thank you!

LBC LEON BEAUX et Cie,
M 16 Milan? Or Mitragliatrice
( as in Villar Perosa M1915)
The MG Cartridges were a stiffer load from the M910 Glisenti Pistol ammo…as evidenced by different markings on Fiocchi 9mm crates
“M910 per Mitragliatrice” ( see photos in latest Fiocchi catalogus)

Doc AV
Going to Isonzo battle fronts this August ( WWI & 1944-45)

Page,

Welcome to the forum!

Here is a link to some information on the casing you show:

http://www.munizioni.eu/italiane2/13-italiane/38-9-glisenti.html

Brian

Is there any documentary evidence the Italian military procured the 9x19 m/m cartridge during WW.I loaded to different performance levels for handguns and the Villar Perosa? Jack

The only documentary evidence of difference in loads that I have, after much study of the 9 x 19 mm M910 “Glidsenti” cartridge, is outlined below. Of course, the Italian collectors may have paper documentation on this as well. I don’t.

  1. Box Labels. I only have, regretably, a few M190 boxes. However, I do have one square box, likely for 20 or 25 rounds (the quantity is not part of the label information) for 1918 Bologna production. Label says: “M.910-915 PER PISTOLA MITRAGLIATRICE, BOLGNA B.P. 1918.” There is no “and” between “Pistola” and “Mitragliatrice” indicating, it would seem, that this is ammunition for the “Machine Pistol.” That would like be the twin-barrel and action Villar-Perosa."

I also have two box labels, one from Western Cartridge Company and the other, I believe, to be from Maxim. These hold 28 cartridges and are labeled identically, although not in the same print, as “28 CARTUCCE MOD-910 PER MITRAGLIATRICE”. Along with those is a 7-round box labeled "CARTUCCE per PISTOL M. 910, Industria Privata, 1917, contain Maxim cartridges so-dated.

I have two other 7-round boxes, one from 1916 and one from 1931, both from Bologna. They only reflect that they are “M.910” what is not only the designation of the Glisenti Pistol, but also of the Glisenti cartridge regardless of what weapon it is for.

  1. Some of the Italian 9 Glisenti cartridges have an over-powder wad, while others do not. Alessio Grimaldi, a top Italian cartridge collector and student of ammunition, now gone, felt that the wad was there to increase pressures for use in submachine guns and carbines. This opinion is corroborated by drawings, unfortunately not at hand, that show cartridges one with the wad and one with no wad, labeled respectively as “a pallottola per pistola automatica mod.910” and “a pallottola per pistola mitragliatrice mod. 15,” the latter being the Villar Perosa. The presence of a wad or anything else that reduces the size of the powder chamber and adding weight to the components expelled upon firing, does increase pressure. It IS likely that this would not be enough to render the ammunition unsafe to shoot in a Glisenti Mod. 910 Pistol, an opinion also expressed in Ruggero Pettinelli’s book, Armi Portatile E Munizioni Militari Italiane 1870-1998.

  2. Some cartridges by Leon Beaux, Milano, dated 1917 and 1918, have two vertical lines on either side of the primer as part of the headstamp. Pulling bullets from those without the lines revealed no presence of an over-powder wad, while those with the lines had one.
    I have no documentation for this opinion, but it would seem logical that the lines indicate the difference in the case contents.

For further reading on this subject, I suggest the following article:

“The 9 m/m Glisenti Model 1910 Cartridge,” by John Moss, Woodin Laboratory, with photographic assistance from Lew Curtis," IAA Journal Issue 454, Mar/Apr '07, pages 10 thru 24.

John Moss

John: Thanks much for your comments. I have printed this out for my file and will give it a careful reading. Jack

Thanks a lot guys - interesting read and very useful information for me!

I missed one small thing. Doc Ave questioned whether the “M” on the headstamp of the cartridge-subject of this thread, meant “Milano,” the city in which the Leon Beaux Company was situated, or “Mitragliatrice” (machine gun)? I am sure it means Milano. The arsenal at Bologna, to corroborate the headstamp Style, has the Chief Inspector’s initials at the 12 o’clock position on the headstamp, and then a “B” (Bologna) at the 6o’clock position, followed by a dash and a two digit date. Capua used a “C” before the date, I believe.

John Moss