WW1 German 7.62 x 54mm & 8x50R Mannlichers for Bulgaria

We had also (W.R.A.Co.7,62 m/m RUSS) purchased by the Republicans. They came in the steamer Mar Cantábrico that was seized by the Nationalists in Bilbao.

Again, thanks for the interesting headstamps.

While we’re at it, perhaps this is a good time to re-ask about a positive ID for this 7.62x54R. Brass case and primer, pointed CN bullet, headstamp is K 9.

Magnetic jkt ?

- for USA (of course, with exception hds WESTERN 20, which probably was made for White Forces)

We had also (W.R.A.Co.7,62 m/m RUSS) purchased by the Republicans. They came in the steamer Mar Cantábrico that was seized by the Nationalists in Bilbao.

Again, thanks for the interesting headstamps.

Yes, I know about this headstamps, but I posted only headstamps which concern Russia and Germany before and in time of WWI

While we’re at it, perhaps this is a good time to re-ask about a positive ID for this 7.62x54R. Brass case and primer, pointed CN bullet, headstamp is K 9.

This type of headstams are a great questions for all 7,62x54R collectors. In some sources are mentioned that this is a headstamp of Krupp factory. I am not agree with this. As per my opinion this case (and cartridge was made in Russia). The style of headstamping is very rough for commercial lot of cartridges. It looks like marking was stamped on the ready case base, not during case base forming as per standard technology. Also existed another headstamps like this, some of them has typical Russian letters like Ф (F) and the right marking is overstamped above standard Russian headstamp. I have only assumption that cartridges with such headstamps could be:

  • from experimental lots (something like technological experiments)
  • assembled by small private or government workshop, or even cartridge plant’s laboratory from factory made components
  • experimentall lots of reloaded live cartridges, which was not a standard practice for Russia - fired cases was used only for blank or dummy rounds.

Did you know what powder is in your specimen marked K 9? May be this will give us additional usefull information.

No, unfortunately it has a drilled case. When I got it I was told it came from a US government office or arsenal.

Could someone post a photo of the Polte headstamped 7.62x54 cartridge and associated headstamp that came with the “P” marked box posted by EOD.

The Polte made 8mm Mannlicher and an 8mm Lebel posted by TonyE are also very interesting. Were these made for use by the German Military in captured weapons, or were they contract loads?

Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Lew

Lew, according to John Munnery’s book on Bulgarian ammunition, the Polte Mannlichers were made for Bulgaria (that is not to say there could not have been other buyers). He shows them from months 1,2,6,8,9,10 and 12 of 1917 on page 10 of his book). Regarding the pictures by Tony, he mentions a dummy being made into that in Bulgaria. However, the nice photos he posted clearly shows the case without flash holes or anvil, which would tell me that the cases were purpose-made for dummy rounds. A blue wood bullet would not be “out of synch” for it to be a completely-Polte-made dummy round. I don’t know that - just reading between the lines.

His book, same page, indicates these Polte headstamps show up on at least four types of 8 x 50R Mannlicher:

Ball, CN RN bullet (I think I have seen one or two with GM bullet, but don’t know if it was magnetic jacket or not)
Dumy, with hollow blackened bullet envelope and snapped primer.
Dummy, with white wood bullet and empty primer pocket (a few have primer pockets without flash holes)
Blank, coiled paper wood bullet.

He doesn’t mention the blue wood bullet, but I have seen one of those as well, and I think it was in his dupes when he visited me a couple of times.

Thanks for your nice comments, John. I think that I can make some additions. Regarding German suppliers - we must remeber that Rheinishe Metallwarenfabrik (RM code) also made some lots of 8x50R Mannlichers for Bulgaria.

The dummy rounds on the Tony’s picture was made from fired case which primer cap and anvil was cutted by milling cutter. Standard practice for Bulgarian Dummies. During this procedure the central flash hole was covered by plastic case brass. Some times ago I made some cutaways of Bulgarian dummies, and I can confirm that flash hole existed in every case. I will try to make some pictures tommorow.

I don’t know what blue colur of the wood bulet mean. I have never seen it before. But I have had an opportunity to sort a lot of Bulgarian dummies, which I received for trade. Standard Bulgarian wood bullet dummies has unpainted bullet (I think it was a latest model) and early models with green or red painted bullet. All models have long wood bullet and distinguish from each other only in primer seat desighn - from only striked primer to primer and anvil cuted by metal-working machine.

Some pictures with Bulgarian Dummies

hole

Treshkin - beautiful work! The only one I have ever had go through my hands was the last one on the right, with the deep neck cannelure. I don’t recall the bullet being black, but it could just have been worn. It was not mint.

Plain wood bullets on fired cases would, as you say, seem to be the norm for Bulgarian dummy rounds. I have two in 9 mm Para with headstamps S 10 17 (1917 Spandau from Germany) and Cyrillic B / D / F / 33 / and also two in 7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev, with Russian headstamp T 45 and X 3 * 44. These represent the earliest-known dummy types from Bulgaria in these calibers.

Treshkin - beautiful work! The only one I have ever had go through my hands was the last one on the right, with the deep neck cannelure. I don’t recall the bullet being black, but it could just have been worn. It was not mint.

Plain wood bullets on fired cases would, as you say, seem to be the norm for Bulgarian dummy rounds. I have two in 9 mm Para with headstamps S 10 17 (1917 Spandau from Germany) and Cyrillic B / D / F / 33 / and also two in 7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev, with Russian headstamp T 45 and X 3 * 44. These represent the earliest-known dummy types from Bulgaria in these calibers.

Thank you, John!

I think that I display all basic types of Bulgarian 8x50R Dummies. The last one at the right is interesting, because, as you can see at the picture, it’s loaded with the envelope of Ball bullet. So Bulgarians first took the normal bullets, cast the lead core of and then load the envelope into fired case.

Treshkin, very interesting work. But some pics have been deleted. Is it posible to re-post them?

Thanks

Treshkin, very interesting work. But some pics have been deleted. Is it posible to re-post them?

Thanks

Sorry, it was my mistake - I delete all big files from photobusket.
Here are new versions of the pictures:)

Thank you treshkin