XMAS in July

My youngest brother stopped in Sunday carrying a bag he said he got from a friend after telling him I collected ammunition. This is part of what I found.

new shells

Left to right.
Burnside
This measures .55 with paper. I assume 54cal. maybe for Mississippi rifle.
OAL: 3.245, CL: 2.818, Rim: .468, Base: .538, Lip: .460, Bullet: .445 steel w/RL tip. HS: intertwined GR (George Roth?) slashes at 1:30, 4:30, 7:30 & 10:30. Single star at 3, 6, & 9. Dont know what it is.
1" grape shot ?
HS: MAXIM USA 1917. I assume MAXIM machine gun cartridge. Someone needs to explain primer pocket to me.
12ga. OAL: 2.55 steel case w/ DB .865 up case. Lip has fingers which crimp over to hold clear TW.
HS: STANDARD 12 12 TYPE CHAMPION NAT
I have no idea what the last thing is.
Any help you folks have, please chime in.
Rookie

1 Like

The MAXIM USA 1917 is a 9mm Glisenti round produced on contract for the Italian government. The 9mm Glisenti is a lower power version of the 9mm Luger with identical dimensions. It was used in the Glisenti Pistol and the Villa Perosa twin barrel machine pistol. The Maxim 1917 rounds come in 7 round packs and are probably intended for the Glisenti pistol. The Maxim 1918 rounds were actually produced by USCCo and were packed in a 28 round box and were probably for the Villa Perosa. Congratulations, a nice round!

You mentioned the primer needed explaining. What is unusual about the primer???

Cheers,
Lew

Third cartridge is a 11.2x72 Schüler made by G. Roth. Shotshell is a French steel cased 12 ga.

Regards,

Fede

Thank you Fede
. You are the man. Do you know approximate date of manufacture for both…

Rookie

Thank you Lew, I am not familiar with the deep primer pocket that looks like it dosent have a primer in it but there is no flash hole so I must be looking at the primer. I am a shot shell collector so this is a bit different to me
, I also got a 45 with the same primer pocket. Do you know what it is,

Rookie - Be happy with your Maxim USA 1917 9 mm Glisenti round. You don’t see a primer because there is none. You describe an empty, blind (no flash hole) primer pocket. Your round is a factory dummy. I have the identical cartridge in my collection. They are considerably rarer than the loaded ball cartridges, which have a perfectly normal looking primer.

John Moss

Thank you John. So I can assume the 45 I have is also a dummy. Has same primer pocket.

The Schüler was listed by G. Roth for the first time in the c. 1910 catalog. The other one was in the market during the 1930’s.

Rookie - I would have to know more about the .45 to help you on that one. I can’t see that it was described on this thread.(??) A picture of the cartridge profile and one of the cartridge head would be helpful.

John Moss

Hello John,
The HS on the 45 is REM-UMC 45 ACP. If you need a photo I will work on that later today. Also received a 30-40 KRAG dummy HS FA 4 03. Case and bullet are nickel plated. Shame is that rust is getting it.

HI Lew,
John Moss has explained to me that the MAXIM is a dummy round. That was the primer pocket question. Thank you for all the info. Rookie

A photo of the .45 would help - that is, one of the head. My main question was concerning the implication in your mention of it that it was like the 9 mm Glisenti dummy, that is, with an empty primer pocket and no flash hole. That would NOT be a typical Remington .45 dummy. I thought it might have also been a Maxim cartridge, as I have two dummy .45 rounds from them, headstamp “MAXIM 5 17” and “MAXIM USA 9 17” that are the same form as their Glisenti dummy round. That is, they look in profile like loaded ball cartridges, but have empty primer pockets with no flash holes.

Here it is John

IMG_5842.jpg

Rookie - does that cartridge have a bullet seated in it? It appears to be part of a draw set - that is, an unfinished case. A lot of draw set pieces somehow end up out of the hands of the factories, and floating around among collectors, etc. I have a number of them, both in partial or complete draw sets, and a couple in my .45 collection where I have never seen the headstamp before. If the case length is correct, and their is a bullet seated, it could be a factory dummy that I have not seen before - among thousands of other cartridges I have never seen :-) - although I have about 20 or so different Remington dummy rounds in .45 Auto caliber, as well as dozens of others in various auto pistol calibers. If it is a factory dummy, it is very atypical, and a niece piece for a collection.

John Moss

John, I cannot pull the bullet by hand and do not want to try pliers etc. Did you see my post on the Western 45 Colts with red, green and black sealant. No bullets. Still considering your offer and now maybe there is more you might want. I got some more 45’s in the bag will have to look over. You have never seen the REM-UMC 45 ACP HS before.

Emory

There is such a thing a kinetic (inertia) bullet puller, carefully done, & no damage to the bullet. very inexpensive & easy to use, look on sites that sell reloading tools.
BUT a problem may exist in getting the bullet back in once it’s out.

Why do you say your Krag is a dummy?, Being probably tin and not nickel plated brass it shouldn’t have rusted ?

Re the 45 Colts I’ve seen red, green, blue & purple paper topwads without any sealant that are tool cartridges in the same cases as you note.
And I also have with a dark-ish sealant at the edges with red, green and tan topwads that are tear gas, at least I have them recorded as such.

Rookie - Your answer confuses me a bit. I did not suggest pulling the bullet. I only asked if the round had a bullet in it. One cannot tell much about a cartridge just looking at the head (the part where the headstamp is). From the picture of the head, I couldn’t tell if it was a full dummy round, and empty case, or an empty part of a case-draw set.

You said “Still considering your offer…” I didn’t make any offer of any kind, other than to offer you whatever assistance I could in properly identifying those cartridges you asked about which I am familiar with - in this case, the 9 mm Glisenti and .45 Auto.

If the .45 Auto is a dummy round, I naturally would be interested in it if you are not going to keep it, but our discussion never went that far…yet.

John Moss

Sorry John the offer must have been made by another responder. I thought it was you. apologize.

Hi Pete,

I have no intension of pulling the bullet and thought I told John I would not attempt. He asked if the bullet was sealed in place. I tried to remove it with my fingers and it would not move. I am calling the 30-40 a dummy because of the punched primer and the entire case and bullet are nickel coated. The bullet is rusting so it must be steel under the nickel. The case is also showing what appears to be rust. Have checked bullet and case with a magnet and both attract. Maybe the colts do have top wads and not just sealant. what do the different colors designate. Thanks, Emory

Hi Emory
I understood you didn’t want to pull the bullet I was just advising you of something other than pliers, should you wish to pull a bullet when you are next curious & have a duplicate.

You call yourself “Rookie” so I’ll ask again are you sure it’s nickel plated, The date you note is found arsenal-tinned not nickel plated. So if it is nickel plated in might not be an arsenal product. Also a steel case for a Krag in 1903?

Also if I might be allowed to point out a bit of proper terminology use?
A “dummy” is an arsenal or factory inerted example / product.

If a round has been inerted by other than the manufacturer, it should be properly be described / classified as “inerted”. It may still function as a dummy but it is not a proper dummy.

Now there are a good number of different kinds of dummies & they have different uses: sales, show & tell, function, packaging testing, gauges, & others that cross the fields I mentioned.

Almost all are treated with the proper ascribed appearance to help identify their use. Perhaps a fluted case, no primer, holed primer, case hole(s,) hole placement, case finishes, headstamp, label or case print & etc.

As to the colors of the sealant or topwad, short answer I don’t know. For the tool cartridges the would be a different power level.
If tear gas???