Zielmunition Kal. 5,6


#1

Here are two boxes of what I think are WWII German .22LR. One box appears to be 1943 DWM production. It is marked faa, which was DWM’s wartime code. I assume 1943 is the year of production. The cartridges show DWM head stamps.

The other box is RWS production. The cartridges show RWS head stamps. I am not sure about the rubber stamped 44 on the front. Is this the date, 1944?

Please offer your comments.

Thanks
Marc






#2

Very neat, even though I have no clue if it is rare. I’ve been to quite many gun shows in US, and never saw these boxes. I had to shoot .22 when I was in school in USSR. I could assume Germany did the same during the war.


#3

I’ve seen a K98-like rifle chambered in .22RF that was brought back from Europe after WWII and the owner claimed it was used for training German soldiers. Guess they woud have needed ammo in the military supply system for them and perhaps this is an example.


#4

I don’t collect them specially, they all dropped by, -:)
But I can show a few different labels.


#5

The use of .22lr rounds, rifles and conversion kits for rifles and pistols in the German army is well known and well documented. There were even special .22lr versions of the RG34 cleaning kit, army manuals for the use of subcalibre training devices and there are quite a number of photos of nazi-era military using those sub-calibre training devices.

The RWS box reads ‘Hülsen aus Stahl’ (Steel cases).

Are they made of steel (copper washed)?


#6

Here are some older ones from WW.1
Still in a tin

.


#7

Looking at the rubber stamped 40, 41 & 43? on dutch’s RWS labels, it appears safe to say the 44 rubber stamped on my label is the year. I do not specially collect these either, but thought they would be a nice accessory if I ever had a .22 Cal PP or PPK some day. Thanks all for your comments.
Marc


#8

The Zielmunition Kal.5.6mm were intended only for bolt action rifles for target training. The Zielmunition is described in the police Waffentechnisher Leitfaden (weapon manuals) from 1940. This ammunition was not intended for the commercially produced .22 semi-auto pistols and rifles from the likes of Walther. A specially designed ammunition was intended to be used in those weapons and was packaged and sold as such. It was produced in both .22kurz and .22 l.f.b. The boxes were identified by special colored banner on the side indicating for use only in self-loading pistols and rifles. The special ammo was produced in .22kurz for use in the Walther Schnellfeuer model of the Olympia.


#9

[quote=“genkideskan”]Here are some older ones from WW.1
Still in a tin

.[/quote]

Your .22 ammo does not belong in that can. The contents was originally 4mm M20 Zielmunition used in parlor guns or in this case sub-caliber barrel inserts.


#10

I have since been fortunate to acquire some of these ammunition boxes. Note the green label on the side specifying for self loading weapons as compared to the standard German commercial .22 lr box above for bolt action or single shot firearms.
22 cartridge boxes pre-1945
IMG_8280


#11

I once had a conversion kit allowing use of the .22 LR in a 9mm Luger pistol. I think it was of original German manufacture, but I don’t remember much besides that it worked OK. I sold all of my Lugers and accessories long ago.


#12

It was the Erma S.E.L. f. P.08 introduced in the 1930s with a barrel insert and specially designed toggle system to work in the P.08 receiver. It would have required the special .22lr ammo. I haven’t found a box of that yet.


#13

It did have a separate breech mechanism, and the barrel liner was held in place by a serrated or knurled nut at the muzzle. I did not fire it a great deal, but I didn’t have to use any special ammunition in it, just Remington standard velocity, as I remember (this was in the late 1950s) as that was what I normally used for everything back then. It may have been Erma, but I don’t remember that. I bought that Luger with the separate .22 conversion kit at a rural weekly cattle auction for maybe $30. Back in those days, there were a lot of gun traders (and other itenerant merchants) operating out of their car trunks in the cattle auction parking lot, which resembled a flea market. I don’t think that is done anymore - too bad. I bought a lot of interesting guns that way.


#14

I would be interested in seeing some evidence that the Erma sub calibre set needed special .22lr ammunition that differed from the .22lr issued for training rifles / training kits for rifles.

None of the manuals I’ve seen mentioned specific .22lr for pistols or rifles. Just .22lr.

As far as I know, they had a ‘one size fits all’ approach for their (standard velocity) .22lr ammunition. The manual for the pistol set does mention to grease up the individual rounds before loading them, to avoid feeding and extraction problems.


#15

I have sold several of these boxes over the years. Last year a friend asked me to price one which he was listing on Auctionarms. I priced it at $100 to start. He got an email from a fellow who told him he was dreaming. A week later it sold for $125.


#16

[quote=“Vlim”]I would be interested in seeing some evidence that the Erma sub calibre set needed special .22lr ammunition that differed from the .22lr issued for training rifles / training kits for rifles.

None of the manuals I’ve seen mentioned specific .22lr for pistols or rifles. Just .22lr.

As far as I know, they had a ‘one size fits all’ approach for their (standard velocity) .22lr ammunition. The manual for the pistol set does mention to grease up the individual rounds before loading them, to avoid feeding and extraction problems.[/quote]

Vlim, perhaps you are partially correct. Without looking at my manuals, I assumed the semi-auto nature of the S.E.L. f. P08 would require the special ammunition. But examining the texts I see that there is no mention of special .22 lfB ammo to be used. But reading the text further, it is evident that sure performance of the units were sacrificed by whatever organization was using the S.E.L. f. P08 in favor of having to maintain only one type of .22 lfB ammo for use in both rifles and pistols. In the section dealing with cleaning, storage and so forth in police manuals, it was acknowledged that the low powered KK-rifle ammunition would produce difficulties with the operation of the toggle mechanism.

I found some evidence for my belief Vlim. On page 359 of Gerhard Bock’s Moderne Faust-feuerwaffen und Ihr Gebrauch of 1941, Bock discusses the Erma Einstecklauf for the P08. In one of his closing sentences, Bock writes “Das Magazin faßt 5 oder 7 Patronen 5,6 mm lang für Büchsen. Natürlich sind nur die Patronen für Selbstladepistolen zu verwenden.” I think this pretty well spells out from one of the most celebrated handgun specialists in the III Reich the need for the special cartridges for self loading pistols as I mentioned in the above post.